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There has been a rash of military incidents lately. I can't recall them all but the 2 jets crashing in Europe comes to mind quick, so does the submarine incident with the Japanese fishing boat and who can forget the bombing of the destroyer in Yemen just to name a few!!

Anyway; we now have a reconnaissance or some people call a spy plane and it's crew held hostage in China. Our reconnaissance planes have been harassed MANY times by Chinese fighters for flying along the Chinese border.

SO WHY THE HELL DON'T WE HAVE A FIGHTER ESCORT FOR OUR RECONNAISSANCE PLANES IN THESE SITUATIONS TO KEEP AWAY THE AGGRESSORS AND PREVENT SOMETHING LIKE THIS FROM OCCURRING??!!!

Now we are in this ridiculous situation where we have to bend to their demands or risk not having our Men and Women returned!
I'm sure the Chinese are demanding that we keep farther away from their border which compromises our ability to keep tabs on what they're doing and our security. Now we just gave them a BIG bargaining chip because of our COMPLACENCY or stupidity.

I don't know what's going on with our military but fine young men and women are dying or being put in serious danger needlessly!

Sorry about the length but I feel better now.
 

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That is the price of operation. What I mean is all things considered the military has a good track record of not screwing up. No seriously, quit laughing. One must consider how many operations they preform on a monthly basis and how extensive these operations actually are. And if you haven't delt with the military, I will tell you thats what they do most of the time is go out and train.
About escorts for a recon plane. Uh, well recon is supposed to be kind of sneaky, and a couple F16's flying around would not help the mission.
The sub thing? Well, submariners are just stupid. :) Why else would you sign up to go breath recycled farts for 6 months at a time?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Sorry for the initial rant - I guess hearing this thing drag on was starting to get to me.
I suppose you're right we perform a lot of missions every day so things like this are going to happen.
I like the fact that we are the "superpower" but if we are going to play "world cop" then we need to be a little more protective of our men and women. Particularly in situations like this and Yemen, when we know we are doing something that people in the area don't care for.

nuff said
...... Now, what did I do with the keys to my Suzuki :)
 

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Jon, you shut up. Submariners are not stupid. A little crazy maybe but not stupid. Well okay, the Greenville had a pretty stupid moment. ;)

One issue is that the media is getting wind of more military accidents now. There are alot more accidents happening that the public never hears about. Pilots slamming into the ocean while trying to land on Carriers is way more common than people realize. The only time the public hears about it is when it is one of their precious female pilots. They don't care when it is a male pilot. Submarines have collided with more civilian fishing boats than you realize. It use to be fairly common when we were still operating out of Scotland.

Like Jon said, our military is in the business of training. On my ship we had training 6 days per week while underway. Training is why the US has the best military force in the world. We used to be the most prepared military force from an equipment standpoint too until a bunch of dumbasses put Clinton in the White House for two terms. Now we have the problem of getting our equipment back up to normal standard. You can probably check into most of the recent plane accidents and find out that there are scavenged parts in each of the planes. The spy plane had nothing to do with parts so it isn't the issue. This being done so that they can continue their intense training requirements without enough parts to keep all of the planes operational. The scary part for me is that this was starting to happen with nuclear powered ships too. This is part of the reason I got out of the Navy. It scares the crap out of me. I only hope that we can restore the old mindset of no shortcuts with nuke power. The Navy sets the benchmark for nuclear operations and it needs to stay that way. I predicted when I got out that the US would lose a nuclear powered sub within 15 years if the attitude didn't turn around. I hope that the prediction doesn't come true.

Sorry for the ranting. :)

The answer to the original question takes two words:

BILL CLINTON
 

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Bush actually started the cuts in the military and established the status quo. Remember all those
base closings that were related to Bush? How soon we forget. This is not all Clinton's fault,
as there are more people involved in this stuff than the president. Downsizing has just been a
reaction to the loss of a major enemy, Russia (so people didn't think we needed all this money dropped
into the military).
 

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SRX 250 said:
Bush actually started the cuts in the military and established the status quo. Remember all those
base closings that were related to Bush? How soon we forget. This is not all Clinton's fault,
as there are more people involved in this stuff than the president. Downsizing has just been a
reaction to the loss of a major enemy, Russia (so people didn't think we needed all this money dropped
into the military).
No I didn't forget a damn thing.

I was in the military when the major base closings happened and the initial downsizing took place. We took out a bunch of old ships that needed to be decommission and closed a lot of bases that were just opened to keep some Senators constituents happy. I never had a problem with downsizing to a certain point. The 1st Bush administration made necessary cuts. Everyone still had plenty of parts and supplies to operate safely. The Clinton administration cut dangerously deep which put the military in a serious bind. Of course Clinton didn't do it himself but he was(still hurts to say) the President.

The biggest hit to the military came in the initial stages of the Clinton administration while the Democrits controlled the house and senate. They passed the largest tax hike is history and slashed the shit out of the US military wage increase which made it the smallest of my military service and they took away the tax free status on a significant portion of the military's allowances. Moral during the Clinton administration hit an all time low. It was very disturbing having to serve under an individual who protested against our country in the capital of the country supplying the enemy during a very nasty war. That is something that I will never accept.

Democrits want to give credit to Clinton for an economy he had nothing to do with so you can bet your ass he's getting credit for the damage he has done to the military he commanded.

Sorry, but giving Clinton all of the credit for the good but not giving him credit for the bad doesn't wash with me. I'm not saying you are doing this SRX. Just saying that alot of people try to. I don't blame it all on Clinton but he was in charge so that is the way it goes. ;)
 

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Mumbo Jumbo from the Mikester

I will echo RCJohns sentiments on this one also.

Another example of Democrats not telling things in thier whole context, is the classic line: "Ronald Reagan made the biggest increases in military spending in US History and brought the Nation quickly into a recession and gave us the biggest budget deficit in US history.

The proper facts of the matter are this:
Reagan inherited a weak, catatonic country which was headed toward recession anyway. Yes he did spearhead the largest military spending spree ever, and yes he did give us the largest deficit.

But i must say he also was perhaps the only US president in the 20th century who accomplished what he set out to do when elected:
Ronald Reagan won the cold war and it is because our system of govt allows such extreme spending that the Soviets collapsed.

If Carter were re-elected in 1980 i can guarantee there would still be a US/Soviet cold war to this day. "Detente" was getting the world nowhere.

I for one would gladly accept a budget deficit and every other "evil" thing the Republicans have done over a thin-skinned, complacent Democrat-run Govt. that makes new excuses every decade to wash themselves of any responsibility for the messes they create.

Also of note, Reagans HUGE tax cuts in the mid 1980's very effectively eliminated the recession and i do remember quite clearly how strong our economy was from 1985-1990.

Wow, did i go off or what???!!!!
 

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Re: Mumbo Jumbo from the Mikester

GreenNinja said:
...But i must say he also was perhaps the only US president in the 20th century who accomplished what he set out to do when elected...
Well, there was that one guy named FDR. He was okay.

And Reagan didn't quite get everthing done. We still have a Department of Education and those damn air traffic controllers. :rolleyes: And I thought we'd killed off those pesky buggers.

Anyway, for once I agree with at least parts of what's been said. A lot has changed with my job (submarines) in the past nine years - everything from the quality of our new folks to increased operating time and decreased funds for repairs, etc. It is very discouraging for the deckplate level Sailors to be asked to do more with less, and I suspect it's not just the Navy.

Go Red Sox!
 

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Re: Re: Mumbo Jumbo from the Mikester

scotty said:


Well, there was that one guy named FDR. He was okay.

And Reagan didn't quite get everthing done. We still have a Department of Education and those damn air traffic controllers. :rolleyes: And I thought we'd killed off those pesky buggers.

Anyway, for once I agree with at least parts of what's been said. A lot has changed with my job (submarines) in the past nine years - everything from the quality of our new folks to increased operating time and decreased funds for repairs, etc. It is very discouraging for the deckplate level Sailors to be asked to do more with less, and I suspect it's not just the Navy.

Go Red Sox!
See, sometimes you coners know what you are talking about. :D

;)
 

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motoboy said:

SO WHY THE HELL DON'T WE HAVE A FIGHTER ESCORT FOR OUR RECONNAISSANCE PLANES IN THESE SITUATIONS TO KEEP AWAY THE AGGRESSORS AND PREVENT SOMETHING LIKE THIS FROM OCCURRING??!!!

The recon flight was in International Waters. No need for escorts there. The Chinese just didn't "follow" International Maritime Laws in that they want their bounderies to extend beyond 200 miles from their shores. And we, being a superpower, like to test that by flying right around 200 miles from their shores.

Remember Libya? You know. That shit country that used to send us hate messages all the time and harbor terrorists? They wanted to extend their Territorial waters beyond 200 miles too. So we sent our Navy to show them no way. And when the Libyans sent their Migs to intercept, we shot 'em down. Oh yeah. We also sent our Air Force to drop some explosives on Kaddafi's head. It worked. Now they leave us alone.

What the Chinese need is a swift kick in the ass. They'll get it soon enough.
 

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To kind of tag in with what John was saying about the spending and lack of equipment. Do any of you realize that presently the ARMY is offering $50,000 enlistment bonuses? All you have to do is score above a 50 on the ASVAB test. If you have taken the exam, you would know how easy that is to achieve. If you have taken it and didn't get a 50, but are reading this post, I am impressed that you can operate your computer. Congrats.
That is how hard up the military is to get people. The lack of pay (due to the lack of annual pay increases) shows how unattractive of a option the military really is and this is partly reflected in the current enlistment rates. We estimated that I, and other MM3s (machinist mates 3rd class), were being paid about 1/3 what their civilian counterparts were making.
Just wanted to complain about the military, seems I always have energy for that.
 

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funksouljon said:
The lack of pay (due to the lack of annual pay increases) shows how unattractive of a option the military really is and this is partly reflected in the current enlistment rates. We estimated that I, and other MM3s (machinist mates 3rd class), were being paid about 1/3 what their civilian counterparts were making.
Just wanted to complain about the military, seems I always have energy for that.
Yeah, but you get all of your medical and dental paid plus 4 weeks of vacation. :rolleyes: ;)

:D

Seriously, the pay is a joke for most of the military. In the Nuclear Program as an E6 instructor I made a fairly good wage(equated to about $41K gross annually in civilian world). Not as good as my civilian counterparts but relatively close. (Actually it wasn't worth a damn if converted to an hourly wage.) This however is not the norm and a 50 on the ASVAB won't quite cut it either. ;) I'm not sure of the current number but at one point almost 50% of the military qualified for Food Stamps and/or other government aid. That is total bullshit. The majority of this fell into the ranks of the USMC. You know, the first to go and last to return. They get the least amount of pay on average since they do not have as many special pay situations as the other branches.

At least they were well equipped in the past. Now their pay sucks and their equipment is crappy. :mad:
 

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RCjohn said:


Yeah, but you get all of your medical and dental paid plus 4 weeks of vacation. :rolleyes: ;)
Sorry to differ with ya but if medical and dental is paid then why do i pay around $7 a month for my wifes dental. And have hospital bills from the Army's ****-up that total around $1800 dollars.

The state of the military comes into too basic problems. No moral and lack of funding. You have people doing stuff they hate doing with equipment that wasnt meant for what its used for. I am currently in the Army(thats why im stuck in hawaii) and have seen quite a few accidents that didn't make it into any newspaper or newscast.
 

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I almost missed your response John. I think you know better which is why the smiles were attached. Let me tell you a little story about the military covering medical. My buddy Chad and I were riding at about 8PM in Nov 1997? and some stupid beetch fell asleep at the wheel. Since she was going faster than us so she passes me and seconds later wakes up. She was accelerating and drifted to the left, towards the median. As she awakes and jerks the wheel right, her head lights flash across Chad and then bam! He goes down, her bumper smacks his rear wheel. She slams on the brakes and I do the same. I see over her hood, the bike sliding and sparking as it chases him down. He is rolling and sliding and finally come to a rest, head on the curb, body in the roadway. I run up to him and and he instantly begins to complain about his wrist. Turns out he shattered the right wrist and the bones looked like a jigsaw puzzle all shaken up (according to the doctor, it was the worse one he had ever seen). 3 operations and 3 years later, he still doesn't have his medical seperation papers (2 years after his normal date of seperation) and has not been able to ride a motorcycle since due to the wrist. About 5 months after the accident her insurance calls with the final numbers, they will give him $100K. And what does the military do? They demanded he pay them $15,000 to cover the medical bills that accumulated. Even though they advertise free medical. Since when does free = $15000? The military is so low that they wanted part of his blood money and he will have wrist pains for the rest of his life, as well as limited movement forever. Reason 1,371,298,789 why the military sucks and I will never recommend anyone join. You should of seen the recuiters face when i told her that one day when I stopped by and got information on the USS Cole (I had buddies onboard at one time). She wanted me to pass out her business card. I told her I would never tell anyone to join the military, and that to do so would go against every belief I had after 5 years of putting up with it first hand.
And a side note, the "quality" doctors missed his 2 fractured ankles. They found those when he made his 4th trip to the hospital, complaining about how it hurt when he walked.



FTN!
 

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Power said:


Sorry to differ with ya but if medical and dental is paid then why do i pay around $7 a month for my wifes dental. And have hospital bills from the Army's ****-up that total around $1800 dollars.

The state of the military comes into too basic problems. No moral and lack of funding. You have people doing stuff they hate doing with equipment that wasnt meant for what its used for. I am currently in the Army(thats why im stuck in hawaii) and have seen quite a few accidents that didn't make it into any newspaper or newscast.
I never said it paid for your wife. ;) J/K

I actually don't remember if I paid for my wife's dental or not. :confused: I will say that $7 is not a bad price though. :)
 

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funksouljon said:
I almost missed your response John. I think you know better which is why the smiles were attached. Let me tell you a little story about the military covering medical.

Deleted by John for space. :)

FTN!
I read the brief story on your webpage. :)

I don't know the legal details but I will say that if the money came from her insurance company in a normal accident settlement then I have to side with the Navy. They deserve to be reimbursed too. This is the same way it happens in the civilian world too. I am the son of a career(retired) insurance Claims Manager and I can assure you that they would have done the same thing and it is the right thing IMO. This is similar to you being in a car accident with someone else being at fault and you going ahead and having your insurance pay to prevent waiting and then the other insurance company pays for it at a later date. You do not deserves that money, your insurance company does. That is just the right thing.

However, If your friend filed a suit against the lady and won the $100K then I side with him getting it all because he took the initiative to do it.

I AM IN NO WAY DEFENDING THE MILITARY MEDICAL. IT IS ABSOLUTELY A DAMN JOKE. I two friends in medical situations similar to Chad's. They are still hacking on my best friends knees. Both individuals will have problems the rest of their lives. These are friends. I know of many throughout my years in that have been hacked up by Military Docs. :mad:

What is really bad is that they can do what ever the hell they want and if they screw up you can't do jack shit about it. :mad:

I will defend the Dentist/Surgeons that worked on my wisdom teeth. They were excellent. Civilians can't touch them. :)

BTW, the comment about 4 weeks vacation and medical was stated with much sarcasm. :D
 

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Rogue_Biker said:

Oh yeah. We also sent our Air Force to drop some explosives on Kaddafi's head. It worked. Now they leave us alone.

What the Chinese need is a swift kick in the ass. They'll get it soon enough.
Small difference here: Libia. What military? Oh you mean those couple of old aircraft?
China: oh you mean that military with the biggest army in the world and a nuclear power to boot?

Ahuh. You reckon just kick them in the ass and they'll sit back and take it? Do you want to start WWIII?
 

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John, I understand what you are saying. But the military would not require someone to pay for the expenses if there was no settlement. But since he was given blood money they wanted their share. Chad didn't sue but he was the one who did all the work and went to mediation with the insurance company to decide on the settlement. Then the NAVY had the audacity to contact the insurance company and tell them that they needed to get X dollars before he was given his settlement. The NAVY didn't even contact Chad about it. Just went around him.
 

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funksouljon said:
John, I understand what you are saying. But the military would not require someone to pay for the expenses if there was no settlement. But since he was given blood money they wanted their share. Chad didn't sue but he was the one who did all the work and went to mediation with the insurance company to decide on the settlement. Then the NAVY had the audacity to contact the insurance company and tell them that they needed to get X dollars before he was given his settlement. The NAVY didn't even contact Chad about it. Just went around him.
That is pretty damn cheesy then. :)
 
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