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Discussion Starter #1
I'm sure most of you have heard about the collision between a US Orion Spy Plane & a Chinese Mig. Just the stuff CNN dreams of!

Anyway, the Chinese are demanding an apology. They're also holding the damaged US plane and it's 24 crew members in some little island owned by China.

Bush & Powell say go to hell. No apologies from the US. P3 was in international waters and the Chinese Migs were hot doggin' it around the P3, following it too closesly for intimidation purposes. When the P3 turned, the collision occured. Thus, US position is, we were not doing anything illegal, nor anything out of the ordinary. If the Chinese Migs weren't swarming all over the P3, collision would not have occured. Chinese position is, if US were not spying, collision would not have occured. How would we feel if the Chinese were flying a spy plane that close to US shores?

My personal opinion: To hell with the Chinese. No apologies. We spy on them, they spy on us. It just so happens, we have the planes and bases that can reach out to China. If they had that capability, they would do the same. And we would launch our fighter's to "escort" them out of there. Same game we played with the Soviet Bears off the coast of Alaska.

An apology from the US will be a sign of weakness for the whole nation, the military, and the Bush Administration. At a time in which the Chinese are feeling very arrogant. This period in China is very much like that of Imperial Japan in the 1930's. They're strong economically. They're in the middle of a massive military buildup. Their intentions are to dominate Asia and to someday get rid of US presence there.

Any opinions?
 
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I don't think China should hold the plane, Im waiting for the shit to fly ... Im kinda thinking China wanted to knock the plane down just to get a hold of the contents.

I think a stealth bomber should be deployed tonight, and bye bye plane ...

China is no sleeper. They have a large and powerful army. If Canada was to go to war with China we would lose. They have more people than we have bullets :D
 

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Great Topic!

I was considering posting this but you beat me to it..
Heres my take on it all.. First off, NO Apology.

Why? Well, the EP-3 is a slow lumbering turbo-prop aircraft, it flies during daylight hours, is easily detectable and can only fly to 28,000ft / 345 mph.

It is not a "spy plane" per se', but a Reconnaisance Aircraft. The U-2 and SR-71 are "spy planes".

The Chinese aircraft have been flying more and more wrecklessly around our EP-3's over the last few months. So much so that the US made a formal complaint to them several months ago, in an effort to increase safetly to both our aircraft and theirs. The Chinese shunned it off as irrelevant.

This was something we saw as an immenent danger for the last 6 months and was not getting any better. The EP-3 is not an agile nor fast maneuvering craft. The Chinese F-8/J-8 fighters are.

We were flying in international waters. This is China's "accident" and no apology is warranted from the US.

That being said, these things happen, and it would have never happened if we were not flying recon in the first place.

Another point to make is that if a Chinese Recon aircraft were to have an accident and MayDay to land at Okinawa, the world press would be on it like flies on shit. We can generally assume that the Chinese would be treated with dignity and a quick resolution would have already been concluded.

And thats my take on it. Lets hear others!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Don't forget their Navy--a must to dominate the many islands of Asia. Some will argue that it's okay to have a Navy for defense and I would agree. But China has one of the most powerful Navies around besides Russia, France, GB, and India. India. Yeah. That's another story. Anyway, the Chinese are aggressively acquiring Submarines and trying hard to get their hands on an aircraft carrier. Both are most definitely offensive Naval weapons. Some will laugh but seriously, China is the next most likely adversary of the US. Why else are we watching them so closely and keeping them at arms length at all times? :mad:
 

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I have to agree totally with greenninja! Our plane was merely a reconissance plane and posed no danger to chinese security. The plane is slow and nowhere nearly as agile as the chinese plane. China should appologize to us for the idiotic manuvers of its fighter pilot. IMO, the chinese pilot was prolly intentionally making a close pass at our plane to intimidate....which in its own airspace is warranted but is an act of aggression over international waters.....although i haven't heard wether or not our plane had been previously over china or was on route to china. Anyone have additional info....especially those of you in the Army, Navy, Air Force etc. (declassified info anyways ;) )???
 
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Rogue_Biker said:
Some will laugh but seriously, China is the next most likely adversary of the US. Why else are we watching them so closely and keeping them at arms length at all times? :mad:
The boys in the Pentagon don't laugh at this. They know well enough of China's capabilities.
The US does not want to go up against China. Proof of this is will be if Bush bombs the shit out of that air base or not :D ;)

Canada is usually right behind the US, but with new deals recently struck up with China by our Prime Minister, I doubt Canada will have much to say about this. (Plus half our population is Chinese :D)
 

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If all they want is a few apologetic words I'd do it without a second thought since lives are at stake. I'd even offer money (kind of like our SGLI) to the family of the fallen pilot just to show our condolences for their loss. We haven't lost anything but a damaged plan so lets keep it that way. So what if we really don't mean Sorry, they're just words.
You can take words back :D Not lives.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Squidwannabe said:


The boys in the Pentagon don't laugh at this. They know well enough of China's capabilities.
The US does not want to go up against China. Proof of this is will be if Bush bombs the shit out of that air base or not :D ;)
An extreme measure would be to send in the SEALS or Delta to get the 24 crew members, then a Naval airstrike to destroy the EP3. In and out fast. Once the Chinese transport the crew in mainland China, there's no chance of getting them back without their permission. This would of course, destroy everything the Clinton Administration has worked so hard with the Chinese to build: A network of contacts for monetary contributions to the Democratic party! :)

Canada is usually right behind the US, but with new deals recently struck up with China by our Prime Minister, I doubt Canada will have much to say about this. (Plus half our population is Chinese :D)
The US has got deals going on with the Chinese all the time. The Chinese know they need us more than we need them--economically that is. This makes it even more important for them to dominate Asia. To minimize their dependence on US trade. Fact is, no Asian country trusts China as much as they trust the US.
 

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I totally agree with your original post Rogue!

I think Bush is not acting quickly enough though! Like someone said: Send in the stealth!! YESTERDAY!
And China can shove their appolgy up their Arses!
 

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If it says.....

Made in China, don't buy it. I have not heard much on this situation, but I think that whatever we do, we should not show a sign of weakness. Bombing that base might be a good thing, and maybe not. I know China doesn't want to piss us off, so they may not retaliate to acts of aggression too readily. They are also, in my opinion, very stubborn, and don't want to show signs of weakness either. This could be a good/bad start to a pissing contest, and an agreement should be well sought after first thing. Seems to me that idiot leaders, don't know when to say they've been beaten, like Sadaam and Milosevic, (stubborn) and I'm sure that China's leaders are just the same, which could mean that this could be a drawn out thing....
 

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This is a scary sitution. I Just want this whole thing to be over.
 

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jk6672 said:
If all they want is a few apologetic words I'd do it without a second thought since lives are at stake. I'd even offer money (kind of like our SGLI) to the family of the fallen pilot just to show our condolences for their loss. We haven't lost anything but a damaged plan so lets keep it that way. So what if we really don't mean Sorry, they're just words.
You can take words back :D Not lives.



I find it hard to believe that an apoligy is all they want.
And I really don't think that the Chinese govt gives a hoot about their own pilot. If money was given to the pilots family, the Chinese govt would have their hands all over it!
I also find it hard to believe that they would threaten American lives for just an apoligy.....who knows how them quacks think...???
 

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Apology my ass. Hell no we shouldn't apologize. :mad:

We do however need to be careful how we handle this. China is not likely to be our next big adversary. They ARE our biggest adversary. They have been every since the POS Clinton started selling them our technology.

BTW, that is not just a plane. It is one of our most important non-combat planes.

I think we will get our people back with diplomatic means but if it doesn't happen then covert operations are the next logical choice. Bombing that plane would be a political mistake. The media in China is controlled by the government and they can put what ever spin they want on a bombing. We don't need billions of pissed of Chinese people thinking we are killers of innocent people. Remember, suicide is considered an honorable and accepted way of dying over there. :eek:

Haven't heard anything about it but my guess is that the crew probably trashed as much crap as they could before landing. I assume that most military operations are similar to the submarine I served on. If there was a chance of the enemy getting to the ship, we had established procedures to destroy equipment and documents. We even practiced. ;)

Over the next few years you will start to see the adverse effects of the last Presidential Administration. :(
 

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My 2 cents..

My own personal opinion about this "international incident" is quite simple. I am tired of the U.S. taking the role of placater and kissing other country's asses. I am in favor of attempting peacable measures short of apologies and gifts of money or arms, however, if any aggressor doesn't like being told to kiss off, well, F**K THEM!

Winston Churchill said: "Walk softly and carry a big stick."

The U.S. could learn a lot from Mr. Churchill. Seems to me that lately the U.S. thinks Mr. Churchill said: "Walk softly and be ready to take a big d**k!"
 

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I think we should apologise to the Chinese..........;)

We should say we are very sorry that their pilot was such a dumb-ass and flew his sorry butt into our plane which was in international air space.
They can also kiss any free trade agreement with us good bye too!!:mad:
After this act I hope they are NOT sucessful in their attempts to get the upcoming Olympics that they are bidding on too!!
This just proves that they are not a fit nation to mingle with the rest of the "civilized" world!
They had a chance to do the right thing and "score" some points and they blew it BIGTIME!!!

Jim
 

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Squidwannabe said:
If Canada was to go to war with China we would lose.
Who do you think Canada could beat? :)
Squidwannabe said:


(Plus half our population is Chinese :D)
Really? Who would of thunk it?

Apology? No. Apparently the Chinese are removing the US "spy gear" from the plane. Sounds like pathetic thievery to me.
Bikenut is right on. Go closer to the concept of walk softly yadda yadda.
Effectively they are holding hostages now. IMO, the time for being nice and talking is over.
 
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funksouljon said:


Who do you think Canada could beat? :)

Florida, Half of our country is already there..... Im pretty sure we can take Zaire too.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
RCjohn said:
Apology my ass. Hell no we shouldn't apologize. :mad:

We do however need to be careful how we handle this. China is not likely to be our next big adversary. They ARE our biggest adversary. They have been every since the POS Clinton started selling them our technology.
[/QOUTE]

They are also in the middle of a massive military buildup. They are upgrading their air force and Navy quite a bit. Why? To match the strength of the US in Asia probably. Don't forget, we've been fighting them indirectly for the past half century. Korea & Vietnam.

[QOUTE]
I think we will get our people back with diplomatic means but if it doesn't happen then covert operations are the next logical choice. Bombing that plane would be a political mistake. The media in China is controlled by the government and they can put what ever spin they want on a bombing. We don't need billions of pissed of Chinese people thinking we are killers of innocent people. Remember, suicide is considered an honorable and accepted way of dying over there. :eek:
[QOUTE]

I agree. We should play nice, short of giving them an apology to get the 24 crewmembers back. But after diplomacy still doesn't work, it's time to kick ass. Who the hell are they to be holding US hostages anyway? BTW, the Chinese ARE the killers of innocent people. Remember Tienanmen Square?

[QOUTE]
Over the next few years you will start to see the adverse effects of the last Presidential Administration. :(
No doubt.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Re: My 2 cents..

Bikenut said:
My own personal opinion about this "international incident" is quite simple. I am tired of the U.S. taking the role of placater and kissing other country's asses. [QOUTE]

Me too. I feel like we're in Star Trek land. We're always playing nice until the last minute. Look at the Isrealis. Those guys have got balls. Remember their preemptive strike on Iraq's Nuclear Facilities? It takes massive balls to make that kind of decision then pull it off. But because of that one strike, it positively saved us from facing a Nuclear capable Iraq in 1991. We could learn something from the Isrealis too. F__k this Mr Nice Guy act. Why is it that a 2nd rate military power like China can hold 24 American hostages and the Mightiest military power in the world can't do anything about it? Where's Ronal Reagan when you need him? Now there's someone who had the balls to kick ass whenever American lives are threatened. When Ron was president, everyone paid their respects. It's time to get that kick-ass attitude back.

[QOUTE]I am in favor of attempting peacable measures short of apologies and gifts of money or arms, however, if any aggressor doesn't like being told to kiss off, well, F**K THEM! [QOUTE]

YEAH! I think it's about time to open up that can of whoop-ass.

[QOUTE]Winston Churchill said: "Walk softly and carry a big stick." The U.S. could learn a lot from Mr. Churchill. Seems to me that lately the U.S. thinks Mr. Churchill said: "Walk softly and be ready to take a big d**k!"
That was Clinton's(both of them) MO for 8 years.
 
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