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Re: Re: TL1000S

Paul748S said:


What's strange is that I didn't know Suzuki made a TL '100' S?:confused:
Thanks Paul, I corrected it. :)
How about trying to answer the question? :twofinger

Aris
 
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ariszr7 said:
What is strange about the Suzuki TL1000S brakes?

Aris
Is it the hose configuration, where one line goes to the right caliper, then from the right caliper to the left one?
 

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Re: Re: TL1000S

Pete said:


Is it the hose configuration, where one line goes to the right caliper, then from the right caliper to the left one?
Yes Pete that's it!
It is strange isn't it? Theoretically this setup should present some problems, like unequal pressure to the calipers, but it seems to be working OK :confused:

Here it is..

Aris
 

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Re: Re: Re: TL1000S

ariszr7 said:


Yes Pete that's it!
It is strange isn't it? Theoretically this setup should present some problems, like unequal pressure to the calipers, but it seems to be working OK :confused:

I don't know how true it is, but I have heard that the right brake pads wear a little faster than the left.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: TL1000S

Pete said:
I don't know how true it is, but I have heard that the right brake pads wear a little faster than the left.
You must have picked that bit of information out of your cesspool of worthless knowledge?
 

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Theoretically there shouldn't be any difference in pressure to either caliper. Typically in two line setups, the right line is several inches short than the left.

The first "law of hydraulics", which is what brake systems are based on, states that a pressure exerted on the surface of an enclosed fluid at rest will be distributed equally and undiminished throughout the liquid and the surfaces of the container. Therefore as long as the pistons are the same size in each caliper then they should each see the same pressure.

BTW, that brake line setup has been used on race bikes on occasion. :)
 
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RCjohn said:
Theoretically there shouldn't be any difference in pressure to either caliper. Typically in two line setups, the right line is several inches short than the left.

The first "law of hydraulics", which is what brake systems are based on, states that a pressure exerted on the surface of an enclosed fluid at rest will be distributed equally and undiminished throughout the liquid and the surfaces of the container. Therefore as long as the pistons are the same size in each caliper then they should each see the same pressure.

BTW, that brake line setup has been used on race bikes on occasion. :)
Hey, you tryin' to steal my "Mr. Know-it-all" title?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
RCjohn said:
Theoretically there shouldn't be any difference in pressure to either caliper. Typically in two line setups, the right line is several inches short than the left.

The first "law of hydraulics", which is what brake systems are based on, states that a pressure exerted on the surface of an enclosed fluid at rest will be distributed equally and undiminished throughout the liquid and the surfaces of the container. Therefore as long as the pistons are the same size in each caliper then they should each see the same pressure.

BTW, that brake line setup has been used on race bikes on occasion. :)
The first law can't cover the case completely as the fluid is moving when you first apply pressure to the brake lever. Even though it travels a small distance and the speed is also low, there will be some loss of pressure and the loss will be greater for the left caliper in this case. (steel lines because with rubber there is more :))
I think this explains the different wear ratio on the pads left and right.

RCJohn could you specify on which racing bikes this setup is used? I ve only seen it on Suzukis (TL, GSXR).

Aris
 

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ariszr7 said:


The first law can't cover the case completely as the fluid is moving when you first apply pressure to the brake lever. Even though it travels a small distance and the speed is also low, there will be some loss of pressure and the loss will be greater for the left caliper in this case. (steel lines because with rubber there is more :))
I think this explains the different wear ratio on the pads left and right.

RCJohn could you specify on which racing bikes this setup is used? I ve only seen it on Suzukis (TL, GSXR).

Aris
I have to throw the bullshit flag on the first paragraph because of the size of the system and it still falls under the definition of a fluid at rest. In a larger system then there would be some loss due to flow but at the near microscopic levels we are talking about the flow losses would be negligable. :p How did that sound Pete? :D

As for race bikes, I don't know of any that used it as a normal setup. We tried it when we were having braking problems that we couldn't figure out and I've seen club racers do it because they didn't have the right spares on hand so they were having to work with what was avail. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
RCjohn said:


I have to throw the bullshit flag on the first paragraph because of the size of the system and it still falls under the definition of a fluid at rest. In a larger system then there would be some loss due to flow but at the near microscopic levels we are talking about the flow losses would be negligable. :p How did that sound Pete? :D

Souns OK to me but then how do you explain the uneven wear of the pads in the calipers?
I visited a TL1000R site and verified they had this problem.

You say it's a microscopic level, but this assumption is critical and I think it leads to the wrong conclusion.
The pistons diameter is much larger than the steel lines and the fluid has to travel much more distance in the steel line than the travel of the piston itself!
Then the pressure drop in the left caliper is greater not only because of the greater total length of the line used (compared to the right caliper) but also because the extra banjo causes a loss of pressure as well. (Right brake 2 banjos, left 3 banjos).

Give me another better explanation and I'll tear my Mechanical Engineering degree :D

Aris
 

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Alright, I guess I have to throw my BSME in here too (and I stress the BS part).

Aris, you are too focused on fluid travel. Fluid does not need to really "travel" to generate pressure in a closed system. The pressure change is more a function of the fluid's compressibility. I think the answer lies in expansion of the hoses, if anything. More hose=more pressure loss.

How much wear difference are we really talking about here? Is it just a judgement call by somebody? I've noticed that sometimes, people anticipate problems that aren't really there when they think they have already identified a cause for a potential problem.
 

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I was, of course, giving my European friend a hard time. :D

The term "equally and undiminished" thing is the kicker. The drop in pressure due to expansion of the hoses should be distributed throughout the system however, the right side of the bike will see the pressure a fraction of a second quicker than the left due to the added travel distance of the energy(pressure). :p

Damn I kill me. I'm good. I still remember this shit from Naval Nuclear Power School. :D
 

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Discussion Starter #20
RCjohn said:
I was, of course, giving my European friend a hard time. :D
Thanks RCJohn :)

tigertex said:
Aris, you are too focused on fluid travel. Fluid does not need to really "travel" to generate pressure in a closed system. The pressure change is more a function of the fluid's compressibility. I think the answer lies in expansion of the hoses, if anything. More hose=more pressure loss.
It's a safer assumption to regard the brake fluid as 'incompressible' and also the steel hoses as 'non expandable' than to assume that there is no movement in the hoses.
In fact the pressure will eventually be the same in the whole system, assuming that a specified force is applied on the lever, but there will be some variation until this point is reached.

Anyway this discussion doesn't relate to a specific problem or anything, purely academic interest :D

Aris
 
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