Sportbike World banner

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,449 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Link
Gunman kills 6, self in campus shooting

By Judy Keen, USA TODAY
DEKALB, Ill. — Students crawled, hid and ran in terror from a man dressed in black who appeared from behind a screen at a lecture hall Thursday at a university outside Chicago and blasted students with gunfire before shooting himself in a melee that was over in less than two minutes, school officials said.

Six people died from gunshot wounds and 15 others were injured in Northern Illinois University shooting, University Police chief Donald Grady and the DeKalb County coroner's office said.

Lauren Carr said she was in the third row of a lecture hall in Cole Hall about 3 p.m. when she saw the shooter walk through a door at the side of the stage, pointing a gun straight ahead. The 20-year-old sophomore said she "crawled halfway up the aisle."

"I said I could get up and run or I could die here," she said. A student in front of her was bleeding, "but he just kept running. I heard this girl scream, 'Run, he's reloading the gun!' "

Grady said the gunman had a shotgun and two pistols and was a former student at the school of 25,000 students 65 west of Chicago. University President John Peters told CNN on Friday the gunman had graduated in 2006 with a sociology degree and then had been a graduate student in sociology, but was not enrolled at the campus when the shooting occurred.

"He was a good student," Peters told CNN. "There was no indication there was any trouble."

The Chicago Tribune, citing two unidentified law enforcement sources, reported on its website Friday that the gunman was a graduate student at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Authorities did not release the gunman's name, but Peters said he had no record of police contact or an arrest record while attending Northern Illinois.

GUNS ON CAMPUS: Some say they should be allowed

Peters said those who the gunman killed were all students, four females and one male. Four others were in critical condition late Thursday.

The shooting recalled the deaths of 32 people at Virginia Tech University last year at the hands of a student gunman, an act that prompted schools across the country to re-examine campus security. Classes at NIU were canceled indefinitely.

The shooting came weeks after DeKalb police investigated in December writings on a dormitory wall that made references to the Virginia Tech shootings. Police found no imminent threat at the time.

The first shots were fired just after 3 p.m. during a geology class led by a graduate student. At 3:07 p.m., Peters said they put the entire campus on "lockdown," but did not elaborate on what that meant. Two minutes later sophomore Melissa Elaguizy said a teacher arrived at her classroom in DuSable Hall, near Cole Hall, to warn of a possible shooting and order the doors of the classroom locked.

Peters said the school then put out a campus-wide alert at 3:20 p.m. that included a message on the school's website and through e-mails, voice mails, public address systems and calls to media outlets.

"Get to a safe area and take precautions until given the all clear," the message read. "Avoid the King Commons and all buildings in that vicinity."

On campus Thursday night students were streaming out of a dormitory heading for home.

Robin Johnson, 18, a freshman from Chicago, was in her English class when classmates received text and phone messages about the shooting. She said her teacher locked the door, shoved a desk against the door and put a trash can on top of the desk.

"We didn't know how many of them there were. We didn't know if we were safe," she said.

Eric Johnson, 23, a senior from Addison, Ill., said he was standing 20 feet form the entrance to Cole Hall when "the doors flung open and a ton of people ran out. They were yelling, 'he's got a gun!' " Johnson heard two shots as he ran back to his dorm room.

The shooting was the fourth at a U.S. school within a week.

On Feb. 8, a woman shot two fellow students to death before committing suicide at Louisiana Technical College in Baton Rouge. In Memphis, a 17-year-old is accused of shooting and critically wounding a fellow student Monday during a high school gym class. The 15-year-old victim of a shooting at an Oxnard, Calif., junior high school has been declared brain dead.
I honestly think the only way to put an end to all these shootings is to allow students who are of age and have completed the necessary training to carry concealed weapons. I guarantee these gunmen will think twice about walking into a classroom when they know there's a good chance someone might shoot back.
 

·
Strength and Honor
Joined
·
6,144 Posts
Well, that's one solution. It would seem to me that the result will only be shootouts publicly, but its impossible to know until its been done I suppose.

I have a family friend who was among the injured in the shooting. Not fatal or serious but scary nonetheless.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,449 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Well, that's one solution. It would seem to me that the result will only be shootouts publicly, but its impossible to know until its been done I suppose.

I have a family friend who was among the injured in the shooting. Not fatal or serious but scary nonetheless.
Sorry to hear that your friend was involved. Glad they weren't among those who were seriously injured or worse.

I know it seems like the more guns you have in an area, the more likely they will be used, but I don't think that would be the case. Granted, it would only take one instance for the "I told you so's" to start flying. Aside from putting metal detectors in every building, and a security guard in each room there's not many ways to actually prevent these shootings. And that would be so expensive that nobody could afford the tuition. I'm a firm believer that if you take the law-abiding citizens, and allow them to carry a firearm for self defense if they so choose provided they receive the proper training, these random shootings would be much less likely to occur.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,798 Posts
I don’t know how many public shootouts you will have. Seems to me that most of those gunman have some psychological issues. They aren’t looking to kill a certain person, but rather do it out of the need to feel powerful, or seek attention, or something along those lines. The feel of power will certainly be reduced if there are other guns present, as the gunman will no longer have the biggest stick, and he will know it long before hand. The desire for publicity will not be lessened however.
I don’t think the incidence of gunmen will increase. People with a concealed carry license have too much at stake to discharge their firearm needlessly, and in all likelihood any potential gunmen will have far fewer victims, since the sprees are likely to be much shorter.
The downside is that I believe acts of intimidation using a firearm, whether obvious or overt, will likely increase. Still to me it seems like an idea worth trying, at least at a handful of schools if not the whole country.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,449 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Yes, most states that allow concealed carry have pretty strict laws that carry harsh punishment for someone who produces a weapon when the situation does not warrant it. I think that includes verbal threats as well i.e. "I have a gun, so don't mess with me" etc.

I haven't gotten my CCW yet, so I haven't researched the law thoroughly enough to see what the limitations are, but I do know that if you draw your firearm, it had better be a life-and-death situation, or else you'll be spending some time in a cell.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,400 Posts
I am sorry for all of those involved in the latest school shooting & to others in the past. Still if you think CCW is the answer & should be allowed to any student of proper age. I actually TEACH beginners to more experienced h/gun shooters how to handle & shoot their guns. To fire a decent tight group is only achived by a few after some years of training---being basically training & shooting almost weekly, and yes some are natural born shooters so easy to teach, but they have their ON & OFF days but do not know it till they are shootig.

In honesty if I was there & had the right to use one of my best h/guns, a 45ACP of Browning action made to my specs some 3 yrs ago at the cost of $4,000.00 then & not farther then seven yds to feel I can place all two or three shots on the body as so planned to down him/her. Not to mention what would happen if one rnd did not hit the body & went into others or possibly a round went through the soft part of the body to hit a bystander.

Also with all over & no one injured from my shooting I would be in deep trouble with the police & believe me the strain would be beyond belief.

So do some of you feel this would be your answer? For honestly I do not know.
 

·
Strength and Honor
Joined
·
6,144 Posts
I'm a firm believer that if you take the law-abiding citizens, and allow them to carry a firearm for self defense if they so choose provided they receive the proper training, these random shootings would be much less likely to occur.
Vash had a similar point. What makes me less certain are the many, many experiences I've had with road-ragers (comes from driving lots of miles). People frequently and easily lose their tempers and their actions are outright murderous, thus my uncertainty about that being a viable solution.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,449 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
I am sorry for all of those involved in the latest school shooting & to others in the past. Still if you think CCW is the answer & should be allowed to any student of proper age. I actually TEACH beginners to more experienced h/gun shooters how to handle & shoot their guns. To fire a decent tight group is only achived by a few after some years of training---being basically training & shooting almost weekly, and yes some are natural born shooters so easy to teach, but they have their ON & OFF days but do not know it till they are shootig.

In honesty if I was there & had the right to use one of my best h/guns, a 45ACP of Browning action made to my specs some 3 yrs ago at the cost of $4,000.00 then & not farther then seven yds to feel I can place all two or three shots on the body as so planned to down him/her. Not to mention what would happen if one rnd did not hit the body & went into others or possibly a round went through the soft part of the body to hit a bystander.

Also with all over & no one injured from my shooting I would be in deep trouble with the police & believe me the strain would be beyond belief.

So do some of you feel this would be your answer? For honestly I do not know.
Even when I get my CCW it is my sincere hope that I never have to draw my weapon, much less discharge it. I know that firing a handgun accurately is not as easy as TV and movies make it look, and when under pressure, it is surely even harder to maintain a steady hand and control your breathing, etc. I have spent a lot of time plinking as well as firing at a local indoor range, and I have my good days and bad days. But my opinion is that many of these shooters would be less likely to walk into an auditorium, classroom, town hall, etc knowing that others in there are likely to have their own weapons. As it is now, if they are in a gun-free zone, they know that they are the only ones who will be armed. It would certainly ruin their plans if they were taken down before they had a chance to kill half a dozen or more people. As it stands, they know that is a remote possibility, as the only others who would be armed would be police officers or other criminals. And as I said in an above post, armed guards or officers would be an enormous cost for a college if they were to be in every building.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,449 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Vash had a similar point. What makes me less certain are the many, many experiences I've had with road-ragers (comes from driving lots of miles). People frequently and easily lose their tempers and their actions are outright murderous, thus my uncertainty about that being a viable solution.
I see your point, and cars are considered weapons when used as such. But it's also a little too easy for someone to get a driver's license. Much more so than a CCW at least.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,798 Posts
I could add to kanwisch's point. I've known at least one cop who used his firearm in an inapproproate and unnecessary manner. And we've all seen a few videos of a taser being used when it perhaps shouldnt be. Now surely police receive more training for their firearms than the average CCW holder.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,449 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I could add to kanwisch's point. I've known at least one cop who used his firearm in an inapproproate and unnecessary manner. And we've all seen a few videos of a taser being used when it perhaps shouldnt be. Now surely police receive more training for their firearms than the average CCW holder.
True, but they also have more of a tendancy to act like they are above the law.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,373 Posts
imagine if just 1 or 2 students in that class had a pistol on them
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,890 Posts
The act of showing your firearm in a threatening manor (including verbal threats) is referred to as "Brandishing", and falls under assault laws in most states.

In states where open carry is not legal, even so much as indicating you have a gun by accident (such as your shirt stretching too tight, thus displaying the outline of your firearm through your shirt) is called printing, which is also Illegal.

With the facts out of the way, I will continue with my opinion.


CCW in schools: Good idea. The goal for these shooters is to take as many people with them when they go. And, yes, they have every intention of dying before they even start. If they knew there was a 90% chance of getting shot before killing anyone else, then their cause would be negated.

Even if CCW didn't cut down on the number of incidents, the number of deaths would decrease drastically. Along with CCW training comes training on certain proper actions taken to ensure your safety while guarding the safety of others, as well. Even with the CCW course, an unarmed student would be better prepared to know how to act in these events. That alone would reduce the risk of death in these situations. Add a firearm to the equation, and you have now given that same kid the ability to completely eliminate the threat as well. Add 6 more students with the same training and firearms of their own, and odds are now 7:1.

I do not believe incidents would rise with the CCW rate. This would be for the same reason that hopefully the shootings would taper off because of: You are not the only one with the gun. What happens when you draw your gun on someone right in front of a group of 100 people, knowing that at least 1/3 of them are probably armed, as well? The risks involved are much greater than simply following laws. People would understand that, and you wouldn't find them drawing guns on other people.

As stated before... Police feel they are above the law. Vash and I, as well as many others here, have all posted videos of cops using firearms and tasers in place of repeating themselves or using other ways of handling certain situations. Videos of guys laying on the ground and getting shot 3 times, or women who get tased for not producing their license fast enough. These police should, in no way, be used comparatively in an argument about CCW. These cops are on enormous power trips. They do it because they feel they can get away with it. Most of the time, they do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,400 Posts
Snakesht, I understand your "--my opinion is that many of these shooters would be less likely to walk into an auditorium, classroom, town hall, etc knowing that others in there are likely to have their own weapons. As it is now, if they are in a gun-free zone, they know that they are the only ones who will be armed. It would certainly ruin their plans if they were taken down before they had a chance to kill half a dozen or more--".

Vash has some darn good points especially if CCW is slackened for a bit of booze in someone does tend to have them in a strange mood as to safety on the road or even at home.

ZX6 your bit of "--CCW training comes training on certain proper actions taken to ensure your safety while guarding the safety of others, as well. Even with the CCW course, an unarmed student would be better prepared to know how to act in these events.---" would put some into feeling they are GUARDS to even a bit of voice raised matter to something flashing in one's hand such as a cellular phone----then does the one or two or three with CCW draw their guns to drop said innocent person?

In my teaching of beginners to those wanting to learn to group better, to actually get all rnds on the rings to the bull, to teachng PPC requires a lot of coaching & continual watching. So who is going to give this sort of teaching????

Still read back & not in my case I would not even try to down a killer if I was farther back then just 5 yds for I KNOW I can drill six shots into a 2" group--for that is the start off of PPC shooting & then working our way back to 15, 25 & finally 50 yds, but then other reasons of why something might go wrong.

I remember when I was about to be a temporary CNR Express Car man & did not have to take their so called test for I knew more about shooting a h/gun then anyone else in the CNR. So the chap hauls out the holster, 38 Spl revolver & part box of RN ammo. Mr. Robertson was head-man for all of Alberta was watching me, when I said, I wanted the S&W rather then the Colt & then opened it up, checked it over tried DA trigger pull & such.

Out comes the question from Mr. Robertson of "Tell me Bob what will you do if you find you car is about to be broken into?" So I am thinking of a sensible answer when he said "You do nothing as it is only for the insurance". True for when in the car, to having a coffee & chatting with someone else, like from the diner, to getting things ready & sorting out mail, the sling with gun in it was hung up on the wall close to the center doors to left or right side. Now when it came to taking in boxes from a stop or handing out some at the railway stop THAT is when I had the holster rig on. So the the gun on the side was enough to scare most off though 90% of the express car men could not hit the door of a barn from 12 feet.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,449 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Again, I don't think it's a question of accuracy. Look at the casualties from the recent shootings. The most recent walked into a lecture hall with a shotgun and 2 handguns, and had time to reload them. There were 7 fatalaties, including the gunman. These guys can't shoot, they're just hoping to make an impact.

Like Tippman said, if there were just 1 or 2 others in that room with a handgun, what would the outcome have been?

What if the gunman knew that he was going into a room where those who had a CCW were allowed to carry their weapons? Do you think that would have made a difference?

Smitty, I am not questioning your experience, but I believe that if law-abiding citizens could carry weapons to protect themselves, it might make these low-life scumbuckets think twice before shooting up a school.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,890 Posts
would put some into feeling they are GUARDS to even a bit of voice raised matter to something flashing in one's hand such as a cellular phone----then does the one or two or three with CCW draw their guns to drop said innocent person?
Not at all. The CCW courses do not teach people to act as guards. They teach that in 99% of all situations (barring immediate threat of death), it is best to stay clear of the incident and act as a good witness. Your hypothetical "Guard" response would never play out as you have depicted.

I realize you live in Canada, a country that believes firearms should not be in civilian hands... but in the US, we believe in the right to bear arms, and people are trained to act correctly in doing so. They are not just simply issued a firearm and told to shoot anyone who looks like they are making a threatening move. :rolleyes:


What I was referring to with my statement was VERY clear cut. When students are under immediate gunfire, a student having been through a CCW course, would know the proper actions to take in clearing out a room full of students who could not do do on their own, and they would know what could or could not be used as cover at the same time. They would know where and how they could move without putting themselves in greater risk, and they would know what to look for in the other students as signs they could not take care of themselves. These CCW people would know if they needed to return fire... and if so, where they needed to stand (or take cover) in doing so as to prevent anyone from catching the bullets that were meant for the gunman.

CCW classes also teach the do's and don'ts of lawful concealed carry, such as when it is permitted to display your firearm or, if need be, use lethal force. And, I assure you... pulling something out of a pocket during a fight does NOT constitute lethal force.

I mean this in the most respectful way possible, but... you should do some reading on CCW courses in America before assuming that we are just simply giving people the go-ahead to shoot anyone who acts in a threatening manor. These are the views so typical of people who live outside our country as well as those who live here that don't take the time to actually learn about topics such as this.
 

·
Strength and Honor
Joined
·
6,144 Posts
Smitty, I am not questioning your experience, but I believe that if law-abiding citizens could carry weapons to protect themselves, it might make these low-life scumbuckets think twice before shooting up a school.
Well, there's clearly precedence for this kind of thinking, right? I suppose if you think the Old West was a safer time then that would be reasonable. I mean, there's really no point to concealing it, we might as well just wear one on our belts and make the outright risk clear, right?

Look, statistically capital punishment has NO effect on crime (not that I'm against it, which I'm not :D ). So what would suggest that this would be any different, statistically?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,449 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Well, there's clearly precedence for this kind of thinking, right? I suppose if you think the Old West was a safer time then that would be reasonable. I mean, there's really no point to concealing it, we might as well just wear one on our belts and make the outright risk clear, right?

Look, statistically capital punishment has NO effect on crime (not that I'm against it, which I'm not :D ). So what would suggest that this would be any different, statistically?
Certainly a good question, and I'd have to do a little bit of research to get you an answer with stats to support it, which I don't have time for at the moment.

I like the idea of open carry to a point. I think it evens the playing field a little bit, but it would increase tension in many situations and cause panic for a lot of people. I'd be tempted to walk down the street with my CX4 Storm or L1A1 just to see some reactions.

The main idea of CCW is the training that is involved. It outlines very clearly the situations where drawing and using your weapon is justified, but also strongly encourages you to use that as an absolute last resort. You also learn certain methods that are useful in diffusing a hostile situation.

I think the comparison to capitol punishment is more of an apples and oranges one. Look at the number of people who are actually executed versus the number who have committed crimes for which it could be used. It's also not an immediate concern when committing the crime. Having someone who is probably better trained than them pulling out a gun in response is an immediate concern.

Obviously the problem will never be eliminated, but I think the frequency of occurrences could be reduced.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,798 Posts
Oh, cmon now both points are pretty unfair. Wild west was a pretty different time, when one could get away with just about any crime by just moving to a different city. I could counter point your example with that of israel where gun ownership is very high, everyone is packing automatic weapons yet violent crime is very low, excluding terrorism. Not really a fair example either, but at least its from the current century. I think a fairer example would be the lack of mass shootings in police stations and gunshops, or that all but two of the recent shootings occured in gun free zones, and the two that didnt were stopped by armed citizens.
As for capital punishment, dont you remember seing the chart the corraleted murder rates with number of executions? There sure was a trend showing there, if you want me to I'll dig that one up.

Statistics are easy to twist around this one. One I found recently said that states in which you cant have a concealed carry have equal or lower crime rates to those were you can, implying that guns dont prevent crime. But the statistic could just be easily read as saying that states with higher crime rates pass laws to allow people to carry guns. After all most large cities have more cops per capita than small ones, yet they also have higher crime rates, surely no one is going to argue that cops cause crime right? Well, unless they are really spitefull.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,798 Posts
I think a better anti-gun point would be to compare the incidence of mass shootings to incidence of perfectly normal days. Everyone would have to admit that mass shootings are extremly rare. So if allowing people to carry weapons completely eliminates these incidents, but only slightly increases the risk of of someone getting shot on what would have otherwise been a perfectly normal day, than considerably more people would be hurt because of all these guns, than would be saved because of lack of mass shootings.
 
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Top