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S370HSSV 0773H
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This has been credited to Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters (Ret.)

Prior to retirement he was assigned to Th Office of Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence, where he was responsible for future warfare.

I did not personally confirm him as the author, but regardless of who wrote it it is an interesting read.
 

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well, spicersh, it doesn't look like we'ld get more discussion moving it over here than we got in gtr.

Guess its too much reading for most.
 

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It was definately an interesting read... I still think the war is crap, but inevitable crap at least.

One thing I noticed that bothered me...
Using money from export of oil, they imported a high tech infrastructure. They drive western cars. They use western cell phones. They built western high-rise steel frame buildings....
-- When did the author confuse Japan and Asia for being part of the West?

Plus, his statements that Arab countries (Saudi Arabia specifically mentioned) don't have the skill required to maintain their own high tech sectors is absolute bullshit. I lived in a res my past year at university that was filled with middle-east engineering and chemistry/bio students. Maybe they're unable to TRAIN their people, but their people are far from incapable.

Also, following that, the author talks of the superiority of Western civilization. Maybe this is a personal idea, because I personally find modern Western civilization to be tepid and pathetic. Watching fat-ass soccer moms walk around Wal-Mart with their water bottles and Atkins diets while they buy more pathetic cheap shit they don't need- it paints a pretty sad picture of humanity. There is no more struggle or effort for basic survival in Western culture, and to me that seems to take the point out of life. Now our time is focused worrying about the way everyone else lives, because our own lives are so pathetically boring and ultimately fruitless that they neither maintain nor require our thoughts.

That's about where I had to stop reading because the anger of Western propoghanda was beginning to rise in me. Sorry I can't deal out more of a discussion on this, but I'm sick of all this shit.
 

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Speedboy...

I hear houses in Iraq are going cheap these days. If you hate us western-society folk so much...... well, no one's holding a gun to your head to keep you here.

You talk about all the things that piss you off. You wanna know what pisses me off? People who bitch and moan about something that they can totally change.
 

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Maybe I came across as overly harsh now that I read that back. First of all, my complaints are not about my life, and in that I realize that I am what I complain about, but that doesn't change this boredom and angst that grows inside me. I challenge myself at all levels that I can find. I always try to take the hard road, but unfortunatelly that seems to become harder and harder as our safety net of society grows.

Hell, the government tells me what I can legally put into my OWN body... rough times for freedom, even in the West. It's really hard for me to put my thoughts on this into words as I don't totally understand them myself. I'm still trying to figure this out, but I know that I fail to see a point in this 'great' existence that we have built for ourselves.

The world is at the point where, if we just turned off religion and people's violent reactions to others' opinions, we can all pretty much survive w/out a hell of a lot of effort, but it appears that will never come. We insist on working harder for less, and blowing the hell out of others that think differently (this applies on both directions regarding the current war).

It's late, and I'm not thinking right, if I can find a way to better explain my thoughts, I will. Until then, please don't flame me or be a dick to my opinion, as I am striving to do the same to everyone else, useful input would be well-recieved though.
 

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Originally posted by Kevlar7R I hear houses in Iraq are going cheap these days. If you hate us western-society folk so much...... well, no one's holding a gun to your head to keep you here.
STFU, Kevlar. I hear this same sheeot all the time. Its about the most stupid and purposeless reply that can be made. duh... duh... duh... If you don't like it leave duh.. duh.. duh... The point of our entire governmental system is if we don't like what is going on we speak our mind and if enough people agree with us then it changes.

I love things about our country and hate things about our country.

I love that I can feel free to voice my opinion about things I like and don't like. I hope we never have to enact a "patriot" act that makes it detrimental to my wellfare to speak my mind.

I hate that it feels like only the votes from the voters in one county in FL counted in the last election. Hopefully this will make more people vote this next go around.

I love that I can say that I think the President is an elitist idiot who has had everything handed to him his whole life. Hopefully enough people in the country agree with me and will set this anomoly in US governance straight in nov.

I hate that motorcyclists don't have a whole set of well surfaced incredibly twisty roads that only sport motorcycles are allowed to use payed for by all tax payers... still working on getting enough people to agree to that one. :D

I love that alot of people in this country look into the future, look at the present, and feel free enough to say, " I don't think we are going in the right direction."
 

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S370HSSV 0773H
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mmmbarley said:
well, spicersh, it doesn't look like we'ld get more discussion moving it over here than we got in gtr.

Guess its too much reading for most.
I think you're right, and this is both a good and bad thing. I find it very disappointing that a number of people will start to look at this and decide it's just too long due to their laziness. These however are the mostly ignorant people whom I could care less about their opinions. The ones agreeing with the war won't read it as the only thing they need to know is that the people we're fighting are evil because their imaginary friend who lives in the sky told them so. The ones against the war will not read it because their blind hatred of those in charge can't be calmed by things like "reason" or "well thought out ideas."

The people whose responses I am interested in, whether I agree with their position or not, are at least somewhat intelligent and well thought out people. I'm sure this thread will pick up a little bit, as there are some members who may not go to the GTR forum. That's why I posted here as well.

While I don't agree with everything the author says, I do see the logic in his thinking and this is probably the best explanation I've seen for the current state of affairs thus far. It at least delves a little deeper than the "they're different than us so lets kill them" attitude I see from some war supporters. It also examines the inevitability of the war showing just why diplomacy could not work, for those who are against the war. Diplomacy could perhaps have bought us a little time, but in the end it would have failed. So why follow a path you know is doomed to failure?

I don't know. Overall I am a supporter for this war and see the need for it. I also realize that I can be a supporter without agreeing with every action taken by the current administration. I certainly don't think they have handled it perfectly, but I do think on the whole that they have done well.
 

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spicersh said:

While I don't agree with everything the author says, I do see the logic in his thinking and this is probably the best explanation I've seen for the current state of affairs thus far. It at least delves a little deeper than the "they're different than us so lets kill them" attitude I see from some war supporters.
+1 I was on the phone with dad last night talking about it. And as I don't agree with all that the author states, atleast it is a comprehensive and and well developed examinations of what some of the causes may be.

Much better than the typical, "I hate those oil-controlling ragheaded sob's EVERYONE of which wants to kill us and take over our country."
 

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Discussion Starter #10
mmmbarley said:
+1 I was on the phone with dad last night talking about it. And as I don't agree with all that the author states, atleast it is a comprehensive and and well developed examinations of what some of the causes may be.

Much better than the typical, "I hate those oil-controlling ragheaded sob's EVERYONE of which wants to kill us and take over our country."
You have to look at the other side of the coin as well. The ones who think military action is never the answer are just as dangerous (no more, no less, IMO) as those who think it is the only one. There is a time and place for everything. IMO, we are at an appropriate time for war. Many of the problems of today are past the point of diplomacy. I've heard people who oppose the war say that we didn't need to go to war....yet. Ok, so at least they are acknowledging the need for it. So if not now, when? When is enough? How many years of diplomacy are needed before you give up and military action is needed? My guess is that the number of years required would coincidentally be the same number of years (or possibly months now) it takes to get Bush (or any conservative leaning administration) out of office. Some seem to be so blinded in their hatred for the Bush Administration that they won't even acknowledge that the timing of this war is right. The execution of it is certainly leaving something to be desired, but not the need for and timing of it....IMO. :)
 

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spicersh said:
The ones who think military action is never the answer are just as dangerous (no more, no less, IMO) as those who think it is the only one. There is a time and place for everything.
What are you trying to say about dad? :D

I agree, but I don't think that time had come just quite yet. I think we should have waited until he made any aggressive move. Any little aggression at all, then nailed him to the wall with the full backing of most of the world. The Coalition is a joke. Brittain is the only other significant player. I wold have wanted atleast one to two more from Germany, Russia, and China.
 

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Yeah, I'm usually pretty pacifistic, I have to admit that. I will agree that some action had to be taken eventually however, but on the same note, I also agree with mmmBarley that it should have waited until the world was ready to back it

Yes, that may have cost more innocent civilian lives, but damn, so many are being lost already in this battle that seems more or less impossible to win for any side.

The article was definately well-written, and it also had a well-developed argument. I just didn't finish reading it because the thesis from the start painted the "The attacked us because they were jelous, so we have to kill them before they kill us" mentality that I've heard a couple times before - although never so well argued as this article made it.
 
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