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Discussion Starter #1
Went to my parents this past weekend and was
told a story that is sad. A family friends
grandson wanted a bike(don't know what kind)
and got Grandpa to help with the money.As he was driving it home lost control and died.
They always have to point these out to me in the hope that i'll quit.Knowing the kids in and around Baton Rouge,he got the baddest bike he could.No one starts on a small one anymore and I'm worried about the future of
our sport.Thought you would like to know and
help guide the newbie's to a long and safe life. God's grace on us all as we ride.
Later all,Steven

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Steven G. Knecht
1991 VFR750F
1989 RX-7 GTU
 

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My thoughts and prayers go out to his family. Another sad end. Ride safe all...



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Richard M. Poniarski
'00 Kawasaki ZR750F2, a.k.a. ZR-7
AMA #674623
NY S666C
ZR7OA #3
 

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now THAT is a true tragedy. All we can do is try to get new riders to be more aware of their mortal status. I think the dealer could or should have been a bit concerned if he had never ridden before (?) but then again, what can THEY do. Perhaps the parents could have been more involved, or something (??) who knows. Its always bad to hear news like this.



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Fear Green.
 

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Its sad, and what sucks about Florida is ANYONE that has a drivers license can go and buy the fastest bike made as a first bike. They dont have to have an endorsement or anything, Just a drivers license to get it registered.Back in 89 when I first bought my Hurricane all I did was ride with the temp tag till my regular tag came in. No one asked for endorsement or insurance or anything. Laws need to be past that you need insurance and endorsement before you buy a bike. I mean after all you have to for a cage right?

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I don't ask to ride your girl so don't ask to ride my bike
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gixxer750:

Its sad, and what sucks about Florida is ANYONE that has a drivers license can go and buy the fastest bike made as a first bike. They dont have to have an endorsement or anything, Just a drivers license to get it registered.Back in 89 when I first bought my Hurricane all I did was ride with the temp tag till my regular tag came in. No one asked for endorsement or insurance or anything. Laws need to be past that you need insurance and endorsement before you buy a bike. I mean after all you have to for a cage right?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

More laws? I don't think so. Are you a Democrat? I suppose you think we need more gun laws. ;)

You can't legislate intelligence.

If someone wants to buy a bike that they can't handle then go ahead. Natural selection... survival of the fittest. There is no reason why I should have to have insurance or an endorsement to purchase my bike. I do carry insurance on my bike just because I think $370 per year for full coverage on an RC 51 is reasonable. Dead bikers are not a burden on anyone, except the mental burden on family for losing a loved one.

I rebuilt a YZF twice without ever using the insurance. If I had used insurance then it would have just added to the statistics that make the crap so high anyway. :)

BTW, insurance is not require to purchase a cage, just to finance it. Some states require liability insurance to drive one. I don't know of any state that requires full coverage although some require uninsured motorist coverage.




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John

"If Harley made an airplane... would you fly in it?"
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RCjohn:
More laws? I don't think so. Are you a Democrat? I suppose you think we need more gun laws. ;)

You can't legislate intelligence.

If someone wants to buy a bike that they can't handle then go ahead. Natural selection... survival of the fittest. There is no reason why I should have to have insurance or an endorsement to purchase my bike. I do carry insurance on my bike just because I think $370 per year for full coverage on an RC 51 is reasonable. Dead bikers are not a burden on anyone, except the mental burden on family for losing a loved one.

I rebuilt a YZF twice without ever using the insurance. If I had used insurance then it would have just added to the statistics that make the crap so high anyway. :)

BTW, insurance is not require to purchase a cage, just to finance it. Some states require liability insurance to drive one. I don't know of any state that requires full coverage although some require uninsured motorist coverage.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your right, and no im not a democrat. I just wish something could be done. when I worked for the honda dealer I use to see these kids that are stationed here for school(NAS Pensacola) come in and buy big litter bikes,and when they would leave, wreck the thing right in front of the shop. not even an hour after buying it. I guess a bike shop should have pictures of guys that have bought bike bikes because they thought they were cool or girls would like them more and then wrecked them to show a person who wants a big bike but never has ridden. maybe the kid might be like wow, I guess I should start out on a smaller bike. I dont know. Also what Im worried about is someone will end up sueing a motorcycle company because their son or daughter got hurt or died because of wrecking a bike... I mean, people are sueing cigarette companies and there is a damn warning on every box. I just dont know.



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I don't ask to ride your girl so don't ask to ride my bike
 

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I knew of a SportsCar dealer who required their customers to take a driving school (sponsored by them) before you could take delivery on certain cars. You picked the car up in the morning, drove to the school which had instructor's from sports car racing like Brian Redman, Hurley Haywood, Debra Greg etc. They cared about their customer's safety and it showed.
Now, if Bike dealers took the same interest in "their" customers (even if there was an extra charge) before they could take delivery of their Bikes, the accident rate might go down.

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Marty
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gixxer750:

[/b]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Your right, and no im not a democrat. I just wish something could be done. when I worked for the honda dealer I use to see these kids that are stationed here for school(NAS Pensacola) come in and buy big litter bikes,and when they would leave, wreck the thing right in front of the shop. not even an hour after buying it. I guess a bike shop should have pictures of guys that have bought bike bikes because they thought they were cool or girls would like them more and then wrecked them to show a person who wants a big bike but never has ridden. maybe the kid might be like wow, I guess I should start out on a smaller bike. I dont know. Also what Im worried about is someone will end up sueing a motorcycle company because their son or daughter got hurt or died because of wrecking a bike... I mean, people are sueing cigarette companies and there is a damn warning on every box. I just dont know.


[/B][/QUOTE]

I know what you mean. It is very frustrating. I wish I had the answer. Many don't agree with me but I like the idea of the Japanese Manufacturers' self imposed top speed limit for the sportbikes(ie, 'Busa and ZX-12).

Whoa, I won't even get started with my opinion on the tobacco industry lawsuits. :eek: ;)

One law I would agree on is mandatory MSF course(or similar) for the license. I believe some of the states require a training course before you get the motorcycle endorsement on the liscense.

This is a tragedy and my thoughts go out to the family of the fallen rider. :(

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John

"If Harley made an airplane... would you fly in it?"
 

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Some good points. There is another alternative that is kinda a compromise between the two, and the motorcycling community is actually about half way to the solution already.

Scuba divers faced the exact same situation. A sport people loved, many deaths, and accumulating pressure from environmental impact (basically the community had pretty poor habits and was trashing the remarkably fragile reefs).

The solution was regulatory, but was a self imposed regulatory agency (PADI and NAUI). In order to get tanks filled at dive shops, and in able to participate in group dives on dive boats, you must have a basic level of certification from one of the two major certification agencies.

Also, the community as a whole places tremendous emphasis on safety first. Full redundancy is mandatory for even simple shallow dives (basically stuff you could snorkle). Anybody can call off any dive at any time for any reason, and is encouraged to do so. Even if they just have the jitters. Aggressive and reckless divers are shunned and mocked. Extreme diving such as cave dives requires many more levels of certification. Touch the reef on a dive, and expect to catch a lot of grief about it from your dive master and your dive buddies.

Nobody gets certified for anything unless they have done a certification dive with a licensed instructor and demonstrated basic skills.

We already have the organization (the Motorcycle Safety Foundataion) and the certification (the basic rider course). Both the basic rider course and my basic open water scuba certification took about the same amount of time and energy. Both required a final test administered by a certified instructor, and neither group was shy about "failing" people that still have work to do.

We can accomplish most of this with no government involvement (remember... there is no situation so bad that a little big government can't make it worse). We already have the organization, we already have the classes, we already have the instructors.

What remains to achieve is an emphasis on safety that this (and many other bike oriented forums) lack. Nobody should ever be pressured into a ride at a pace they do not feel comfortable with. Ever. Joking about it (like those t-shirts mocking people for being slow) should be completely rejected by the mainstream community, along with the people that wear them.

Aggressive and wreckless behavior should be widely rejected by the community unless it is on the track or other private property (where it is none of my business, and in fact I might want to buy the video :)

Philosophies like "The Pace" are going a long way towards balancing the fun of sportbikes along with keeping a good safety margin. Emphasis should be moved from speed, which any idiot with more balls than brains can do (once anyway), to form, which takes some serious practice and ability to ever achieve.

Lets start bragging about "going on five years now without ever locking the back brake" or "On my third year without an emergency that I had not planned ahead for and correctly executed out of". Stop with the bragging about how we drug the pegs on a 80mph blind sweeper, and brag about how big a safety margin you are able to maintain because of your excellent mental and physical riding skills.

Wow... that was quite a rant...

Bill "Proud to be safe and whimpy when riding" Kilgallon


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"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to eventually close it again on something solid" (GK Chesterton)
 

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Wow,
That has got to be one of the most intelligent and thought out posts I've seen in a while. Great analogy too (I can relate having recently been Open water certified).

I do think it would be in everyone's interest that you be required to take (and pass) an MSF type course before you can get your license.

W-

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Will Darton
Administrator
http://azsportbike.net
99ZX-6e
 

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In the NAVY we had to have a MSF course of sorts to ride on base, but none to be endorsed and purchase a bike. I didn't want to take the course but it was VERY good. The guy teaching was this old crusty Harley biker dude who rode the dickens out of a late 80's Harley ex police bike. He would scrape through the footrests and everything, BUT he could ride and was one hell of an instrustor. It should be a requirement for everyone.
One other note, an overly slow and cautious rider can be as unsafe as a slow cager. I am in school with this guy and we have a 20 mile commute to and from. I will break 100 on the long straight but it is safe. No onroads, low traffic, smooth roads and good vison. I still think I am safer doing that than this guy in traffic. He just thinks anything over 80 is crazy, and to be honest he has no clue how his F2 can handle and perform. Just my .02.

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If if if....
If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass every time he jumps!
 

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One of my old instructors in the Naval Nuclear program is an MSF Instructor for the Navy in the Charleston, SC area. He drives and old Harley that he can ride the crap out of in the twisties. His wife has a Harley Sportster. :cool:

He's a good guy and from what I remember a damn good instructor in the Nuke program. :)

My best friend is an MSF Instructor at the Norfolk base but he doesn't ride a Harley. ;) He now has a KLR650 that I call "the tractor".

The MSF course is excellent and I highly recommend it for all. :)

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John

"If Harley made an airplane... would you fly in it?"
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>He just thinks anything over 80 is crazy, and to be honest he has no clue how his F2 can handle and perform. Just my .02.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would he get a sportbike? He is entitled to get whatever bike he wants but why not get a cruiser or standard bike that is a bit more comfortable and more for speeds of 80 or below?


I feel that the MSF course should be mandatory before you get you licience to ride a bike. MSF instructors will fail people that need to improve the DMV won't fail anybody. You could be blind and stupid and still get licienced to drive (In AZ anyway)
That's how I got mine! j/k :D

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You get the best thrills on two wheels!

Damn rice burners!
 

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Okay John, I knew there was something about you. Now I know for sure, you were a nuke. How long ago was that and how long in the navy? I managed to get out inbetween B and C school in '95. On of the last to enjoy the Orlando base. To bad I didn't ride back then. This buddy of yours, when did he quit teaching MSF in Norfolk? This may be leading up to I don't know the difference between a Harley and a wannabe Harley but I am pretty sure it used to be a police bike, this was 1997 I believe. Your buddy replace the footrest plates every 3 months or so?

I have no idea why he got the bike instead of a more appropriate one ie something more comfortable.

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If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass every time he jumps!

[This message has been edited by funksouljon (edited October 01, 2000).]
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by funksouljon:
Okay John, I knew there was something about you. Now I know for sure, you were a nuke. How long ago was that and how long in the navy? I managed to get out inbetween B and C school in '95. On of the last to enjoy the Orlando base. To bad I didn't ride back then. This buddy of yours, when did he quit teaching MSF in Norfolk? This may be leading up to I don't know the difference between a Harley and a wannabe Harley but I am pretty sure it used to be a police bike, this was 1997 I believe. Your buddy replace the footrest plates every 3 months or so?

I have no idea why he got the bike instead of a more appropriate one ie something more comfortable.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The buddy in Norfolk is still there but doesn't teach MSF often. He rides a KLR650 Kawi. :cool:

The friend/MSF instructor in Charleston is the one that owns a Harley. I'm not sure if it was a police bike or not. :confused:

Both guys are still at their respective bases. :) Both lifers. :D

BTW, I graduated from NPS in Dec. '86 and got out of the Navy in June '94. I was one of the last to go thru "A" School in Great Lakes, IL.

I would have e-mailed you off line but have no e-mail listed. ;)


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John

"If Harley made an airplane... would you fly in it?"
 

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I am so sorry for the freinds and family of this guy. I cannot believe that in places if the US that you can just go and buy any bike and ride it - its criminal really - I believe that you should have to show ou can handle the machine - we have to over here - we cant ride a 50cc moped without a Compulsary basic training cert. - and if you can only ride a 125 on that - you have to do a CBT on a bigger bike and then you can ride that for 1 year before being banned from riding for 2 years - if you dont pass a full test in that period your banned for 2.

I am new to sprts bikes - had up to 125's before when younger and in March will buy sportsbike, andwill do my CBT - ride to get used it - do my test - then go on a advanced riding course to help me learn how to ride (both my wife and I will do this).

It's a shame that riding motorbikes is so dangerous and I have often thought that is not worth it and a car would be better/ dafer - but then again, after being on the back of my freinds ZX6-R at 160mph - the rush overtakes and feels so damn good that I try to forget about the danger, but i will be sensible when I get my bike (to as much of a degree as I can, I will buy full armour, and a decent helmet - Im thinking AGV evo at present, and I will buy the same for my wife, in fact I'll probably spen as much as possible on her agear as I can.

Again, my sympathy and mine and my wife's love and respect to the people involved. Were so sorry.

Just to make a point, I did a post a couple of days ago about not wanting my wife on the bck once i get the bike - this is because :-

a) I'm sure riding willbe easier on my own

b) I don't want my mistakes to get her killed

c) :) I dont want her screaming slow down all the time!!!!!!

(The lst was meant in uplifting and funnyway - any offence taken - i apologise.


The signature seems ironic at this point, but do try....

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Be Happy,
James
 
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