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Discussion Starter #1
Subj: Re: GOOD JOB!
Date: 9/5/2003 4:26:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)




You stupid morons have just murdered your fellow idiot riders. Keep up the good work, before long you should have gene pool clear of polluteing idiots. What's next? Seatbelts or child carseats?

R.Camp
rider and paramedic
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Dear R. Camp:
I'm sorry you feel the need to express your opinion in such strong terms but I respect your right to voice those opinions.

I don't believe that I qualify as a "stupid moron" just because I believe adults should have the freedom to choose whether or not to wear a piece of protective equipment whose protective value has been considered questionable among various respected experts. In fact, my college transcript shows that I not only have degrees in Engineering Science, Environmental Technology, Business Administration, Mathematics and Chemistry, but that I maintained a 4.0 QPA for all of them. No, I am not stupid.

ABATE of PA has doctors, lawyers, police officers and EMTs among it's membership. I doubt that you should consider them as stupid either.

It is my firm belief that in this Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave, personal freedoms should be carefully guarded to prevent government from evolving into Big Brother. It is also my firm belief that opponents to freedom of choice should join forces with us to start preventing motorcycle accidents and not hiding behind a mandatory helmet law. A motorcycle helmet has never prevented a single accident. However, I personally know two people who may have survived an accident if their legal helmet had not broken their neck and killed them instantly. I believe that full face helmets are more likely to cause neck and spinal cord injuries but I will probably still wear my smaller helmet.

Regarding the ridiculous "half-naked protest" (link you sent) staged in Pittsburgh yesterday, I would never be stupid enough to consider myself sufficiently protected on my motorcycle wearing little clothing and a full face helmet. Those who take the Motorcycle Safety Course (MSC) learn that you must protect your skin and that many injuries occur from the waist down. Wearing a full face helmet and little else would probably result in leaving more of your skin on the road than on your body if you went down. Do you really consider this safe driving techniques just because they were wearing helmets? Or did you see it as merely the attention-getting ploy that it was?

The new PA helmet law modification provides an incentive for riders to get the training that can truly save their lives. Participation in the MSC has increased and the last I heard, the waiting list can be several weeks. Last year ABATE of PA was responsible for passing a bill to increase our own (motorcyclists) out-of-pocket licensing and permit fees in order to increase funding for the MSC. Thank goodness this extra funding is already in place to increase the availablity of this life-saving training since it is enjoying such an increase in popularity. We've spent decades promoting rider safety through training - the only effective way to PREVENT accidents. We also have another ABATE program called OSAL, "Operation Save A Life" which trains other drivers about motorcycle awareness.

Opponents to freedom of choice often hide behind a mandatory helmet law as a quick and easy fix to the "whole problem" of motorcycle accidents. People who are truly concerned about motorcycle safety should become actively involved in promoting rider safety and not rely on legislation as a means to wash their hands of the issue. We aren't armchair quarterbacks - we spend hours of our own (volunteer) time actively promoting rider safety and have been for decades.

Have you ever considered that some riders don a helmet and instantly drive less carefully because they get a false sense of safety just from wearing the helmet? This false sense of security can be deadly. If you research the facts you will find that helmets are only reliable at speeds of 14 mph and less. I don't know about you but most of my miles ridden are not through a school zone.

Oh, and by the way, I wear my seatbelt. I have more confidence in my seatbelt not causing further injury than I do in helmets.

Thank you for your email.
Jayne Challinor
ABATE PA Webmaster
 

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hrmm...that's great that dick got a 4.0 QPA...what the hell does that prove? so did I. As far as his degrees, he can take them and shove them up his ass...cause they don't mean a thing except he paid lots of money for the same education a bum could get in a public library for free.

As far as the 'helmet breaking the neck' goes that's questionable...if your head hit something with enough force to break your neck, it'd probably be split open...and as far as that goes, there have been many people who have survived car accidents without having their seat belts on, and that's well documented...waking up laying on the dashboard, wheel cut through the seat, etc...

I think wearing a helmet should be a choice...if you dont wanna wear one, you shouldn't have to...i have no problem with the law...I just think it's just as silly to ride without a helmet as it is without any clothes at all...as we demonstrated the other day.

Anyway, back to the point (well there is no point, but ok)...most seriouss motorcycle accidents aren't the fault of the rider....it's a car. We have cars that pull out infront of big yellow school busses that claim they didn't see them...they can't see us...i think we should wear those penndot vests if you ask me.


I dont know...I'm seriously pissed about dicks that write stuff, re-read it for proper punctuation, and then spell check it too...that just annoys me. Live a little Jayne Challinor, and while you're at it take the stick outta your ass.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
My reply back to ABATE webmaster.....



Okay, the ride that we did was to prove we were safer naked with a helmet then fully dressed without one.

90% of the riders are graduates of the MSF course.

Two riders who have been killed from wearing a helmet? Would like to see how the forces the helmet generated to the spine wouldn't have been enough to cause a head injury with the same results.

I have heard all the excuses for not wearing a helmet and believe 99% of them are hogwash. A good quality helmet does not block peripheral vision at all, has decent ventilation and if properly fitted has tolerable all day comfort. the half helmets are almost useless after first impact because they become displaced. Full opened face helmet is much better and a full face offers face protection.

I do agree if your head is the first part of your body to impact anything above 15 mph, helmet or not you dead. Say you lowside your bike, your head isn't the first thing to impact the ground. the secondary slower impacts is where a helmet can prevent head injuries. Even in highsiding a bike a lot of times you head isn't the first thing to impact. I have worked many motorcycle mvas and have seen people die from wearing the fake little chopper helmets that would have walked away if they would have had a TRUE d.o.t. lid on. One recently comes to mind, rider was riding a slow pace and a deer jumped off a small bank and strike the rider. The rider had been wearing a thick leather jacket, chaps and a fake beanie helmet. Deer struck him on the right side of his body (not the bike) and knocked him off bike. Left shoulder had small scuff on jacket and small contusion on his shoulder. Left side of FAKE helmet had 1/2 inch scuff above his ear. The bike was 10-15 feet away with only broken clutch lever, bent shifter lever and turnsignals broke. No damage to front of bike and no deer or blood on bike. deer was over a bank near by with broken leg. Police shot the deer. Rider died the next day from a head injury. The guy was stone cold sober and speed was estimated below 25 mph (happened at night on a side road). Coroners report showed only a head injury. A helmet would have saved his life and he could have rode home. Oh I had to point it out to the investigating officer that he wasn't wearing a helmet, merely a novelty. All the gathered reports (HURT) including are tainted with bad reports like this one would have been if I wouldn't have pointed it out.

I can also tell you stories of highspeed fully geared riders impacting objects that no amount of gear would have saved them.

I don't think (but commend ABATE) any amount of education will convince riders that a helmet is a good idea when the "image" conveyed by the cruiser crowd and the stunting crowd begs to differ. What self respecting Billy badass biker will wear a helmet? How about that posing squid? This is where I believed the helmet law saved lives. If a rider wore a helmet just because he didn't want fined and harassed by the police, the law saved lives. Now this is where I believe that ABATE sending lobbyist to Harrisburg to have the law repealed bears some responsibility to what I believe and studies in other states that lifted helmet laws show, the increase in motorcyclist deaths from head injuries.

How much investigation was done into the cost of medical care of those riders who have sustained head injuries to the point they require 24 hour care? I know of few around here who are in nursing homes and on Medicaid cause they exhausted or didn't have any medical coverage to begin with. Yours and my tax dollars paying for their care and I see more ending up in the same condition now that law has been lifted.


To operate any motor vehicle in the USA is not a right but a privilege. Yours and my rights where not in violation by being required to wear a helmet. Where exactly is any car or motorcycle mentioned in the Constitution or Bill of Rights?


Better get busy with the seatbelt and childseat laws. You could drive a car into a body of water and drown cause you couldn't get the seatbelt off. A carseat could prevent you from being able to get your child out of a burning car.


R. Camp

Soon to be a track rider only when my insurance rates increase from helmetless assholes killing themselves.
 

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I feel it is good and all that you guys had your ride and spoke your mind. The only thing that I have a problem with is when some smarter, richer asshole tells me that I HAVE to wear a helmet or HAVE to wear my seat belt. Yes it's safer, but I should be able to ride with or with out a helmet or seat belt. Freedoms are being takin from us everyday. LAND OF THE FREE MY ASS. I will still wear a helmet on the motorcycle, but that still doesn't make me feel any safer. But it should be my choice not one person or many telling me what to do. I think I am a big girl who should make MY own decisions.

Plus nooooo matter what, you will get two sides to every debate.
Just my two scents, and I am dumber than a box of rock with no 4.0 grade average.
 

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The point is...America is getting soft...from the top right down to each state. Don't get me wrong, I love my country...and if I had to, I'd fight for it.

People in America have learned that if you complain long enough, you'll get what you want. The helmet law repeal is just one of the factors that illustrate this.

I'm not a SUPER CATHOLIC or anything, but I believe in God. I say that if our country was founded by the belief in God, that our kids should be allowed to pray in school, or at least say the pledge of allegiance. Taking "In God We Trust" off the currency is RIDICULOUS.

I realize this is the land of the free, but we were free 5 years ago...and all the stuff that has changed...hasn't been for the better.

All of these morons with their 15 year college degrees go around flaunting their pretty little diplomas around changing laws and making us all worse off than we were.

I dont know sorry for ranting and raving, I just think things are going the wrong way...there's a fine line between being 'free' and being stupid.
 

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I am glad for the way bagger sent thoes emails to those boozos at abate and stood his ground even after the reply was sent and he tried to beet him down with his college knowledge. if there is one thing that pisses me off it is when somebody that went to school for 15 to 20 years trys to :bs: you with there almight knowledge and it turns out they cant put a spark plug in a lawnmower. so fu you smartass"s get to the real world and see what happens out there not what you read in a book.
 

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A lot of people up here keep talking about the underwear ride.
You guys made a point, and I was able to explain the WHY and the point. Made for some good conversation.. hopefully you saved someones daddy with your demonstration. Sorry I wasnt able to participate.. Next 500 mile WV ride I guess I will just be wearing sunscreen
 

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Hat (helmets??) off to the hard working folks at ABATE for helping keep our country free! Thank you! Not all of us at SBW are freedom hating, nasty letter writing types. Good work. I'll continue to wear my helmet VOLUNTARILY and FREELY as I always have. Thanks again! Next up, legal weed and a repeal of the assault weapons ban. ROCK ON... MARCH ON.. DONT GIVE UP... THE LAND OF THE FREE!!!!!!

Dont like it???
:finger:


Heh heh heh... Felt good to say that.
 

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Tea Bagger said:
You stupid morons have just murdered your fellow idiot riders.
That my friend is complete BS.

All the dead helmetless fools are just victims of ABATE, right? Wrong! It was THEIR OWN FAULT! Ever heard of personal responsibility?
 

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Re: Re: I have ruffed up a few feathers and am going to reply.

nick_nolastname said:
That my friend is complete BS.

All the dead helmetless fools are just victims of ABATE, right? Wrong! It was THEIR OWN FAULT! Ever heard of personal responsibility?
honestly, it is abate's fault. A lot of people, obviously, don't wear a helmet unless they have to. Being that they had to, they did. If they're responsible for the law being repealed, then they're responsible for those people who wouldn't wear helmets not wearing them...while the rider would be directly responsible, ABATE is indirectly responsible. Ever been 'in the wrong crowd at the wrong time'? I was with some buddies once who were doing stupid stuff...and I got arrested too...even though I was just watching...because I was indirectly accountable.

While the fact is most of the people who ride around today helmetless, didn't wear DOT approved helmets, some did.

These minor points could be argued back and forth and back and forth. Like I've said...I think it should be a freedom to choose if you want to wear a helmet or not. But saying that ABATE is IN NO WAY responsible is plain ignorance. While it should be a freedom, ABATE argued this point and played a big part in the law being repealed.
 

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Regarding the ridiculous "half-naked protest" (link you sent) staged in Pittsburgh yesterday, I would never be stupid enough to consider myself sufficiently protected on my motorcycle wearing little clothing and a full face helmet.

did he seriously think we planned on riding around in our underwear and a helmet for the rest of our lives, and telling people we were being safe?

for having a 4.0 with 5 college degrees, he sounds pretty f*cking empty headed to me,

when i hit that deer, i stood right up, my head was perfectly fine, my helmet however was a bit scuffed on on the left side, i don't know how hard my head really hit, but i do know without it i'd be lacking quite a bit of skin,



and about the prayer in school thing, i don't see why people are still arguing about this, you still are allowed to pray in school, you're just not allowed to make me do it, they still have the pledge too, but they can't make you stand up or say it, plenty of teachers tried to make me and it got them nowhere, the country wasn't founded on the belief in god, it was founded on the right to worship whatever god you wanted, no one ever told you you can't pray in school, i could care less if the kid sitting next to me was praying, and i never would've said a single word about it if he was reading his bible, making kids pray is the same exact reason people left europe and came here, why would they wanna start that all over again? pray all you want, they even still do that meeting at the flagpole thing, i've seen them, the one kid in my school even wore jesus shirts 179 days out of the 180 we had when i was a senior, i counted, the only day he didn't was a day he wore an army shirt with guys parachuting on it



now that i think about it, aren't they infringing on my rights by posting speed limits??? i'm gonna start working on that one,
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Re: Re: I have ruffed up a few feathers and am going to reply.

nick_nolastname said:
That my friend is complete BS.

All the dead helmetless fools are just victims of ABATE, right? Wrong! It was THEIR OWN FAULT! Ever heard of personal responsibility?
If it would be 100% personal responsiblity, fine great. It isn't. How much medical coverage due you have with your bike insurance? 50k-100k isn't shit. You can spend 50k within your first night in a trauma unit. So the guy who suffers a head injury within weeks has exhausted his coverage. He ends up in a nurseing home shitting his pants and drooling on his bib for the rest of his life. Families saveings is exhausted in careing for this person and eventually he ends up on medicaid or medicare. Guess who in the end pays for this persons "choice"? YOU AND ME!

You say you have medical coverage though work, great. Hope it covers all of your care. What is the family to do when a rider dies or ends up a window licker for the rest of his life? Mom going to be able to support the 1.75 childern that most famlies have? Hope so but if not there is always public assistance and again WE PAY for this guys "freedom" to be an idiot.

Oh and another point, who do you think is going to absorb the cost of the insurance companies payout for this guys care? I think WE ARE in increased premiums. So there is no such thing as personal responsablity.


I love that everyone says it is the "freedom to chose" and they will still wear a helmet. Someone forgot to tell all the fools I have seen in the last two days riding helmetless.

A.B.A.T.E. did a real shagging in the ass to the taxpayers and motorcyclist in general for thier own personal agenda. They claim they are about educateing riders (which is good) but they will never convince ALL of them to wear a helmet. A police officer threatening to fine them seemed to work quite well in the past 35 years. I really hope some family members of the future dead or fucked up for life riders get a class action suit and sue the shit out of A.B.A.T.E. and Rendall. I hate lawyers but this would make my day.

If everyone planned to wear thier helmet all along, then why in the fuck did they spend millions of dollars to lobby Harrisburg into repealing the law? That money could have been spent on educateing riders about proper gear, rideing while under the influence or getting the Goddamn car drivers in this state to see and repect riders. That is where they should have spent the money!



Sorry I didn't spell check this.:finger:
 

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Thanks tea bagger for replying with a real argument and not just a flame, although I still want to be able to ride without a helmet legally if I choose to. Here in FL, you can ride lidless legally only if you carry an additional premium of insurance. Id rather see a law requiring you to carry insurance sufficient to cover a head injury than one requiring you to wear a helmet. But, our florida law only requires $10K in additional coverage. Doesnt sound like thats gonna make up the difference. How much coverage do you think you would really need so as not to pass on the cost to other bikers?

BTW a helmet undoubtably saved my life once when I was hit by an evil SUV driving woman. I think my head hit hard enough that it would have literally cracked open.

http://home.tampabay.rr.com/ourplace/helmet101.htm
 

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I meant the woman because she turned right in front of me without even looking. Careless or thoughtless would be better words for it than than evil, I guess.
 
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