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The NRA is not about just guns but IS a right wing extremist group. Gun owners and fans need to start a gun support group that supports reasonable gun ownership and support for their hobby and NOT extreme right wing nuttiness. The extremism is the current and future source of most of your problems and NOT some kind of conspiracy to take all of your guns from you.

If you are a serious hunter or gun enthusiast, you have nothing to fear from any measurable constituency of your fellow citizens of any party. Sure, you can find anecdotes but nothing with any real teeth or support resulting in detrimental action. Why do you suppose George Bush senior publically resigned his lifetime membership in the NRA? Because he's a left wing nut? Anybody know if that's true or just an urban legend. (Pssst... it's true.)

If you continue backing nuts who refuse to see any merit in such things as outlawing armor piercing bullets, you'll continue to have problems, and not from the reasonable majority who totally support your right to own guns and persue your hobby. The NRA's insistence on such extreme views and outright bogus issues is their self-serving need to exist and they're serving NOBODY but themselves by perpetuating it, creating the issues from whole cloth. As gun professionals you should get behind reasonable issues, offer your help and expertise, and never let the few left extreme nuts gain undue influence in battling your right wing nuts. You're a voting block that's being pandered to in the most vile fashion, REPEATEDLY cutting off your nose to spite your face. Obviously, JMO.

I've spoken my piece and won't argue it further because it's too big to be done here and I don't have the time. BUT.... start with listening to the speeches of your head nut, La Pierre. The WHOLE speech, not just excerpts. In their totality they make my case better than ANYTHING I could say in summary. And listen to more than one. His annual address to the club from a few years ago, held in Pittsburgh would be a good start. I listened to the whole thing and couldn't believe what I was hearing! Is that really what you support? You need a club that supports your hobby within a society and NOT some NUTS who have an agenda they support that's WAY beyond the scope of your hobby! Happy hunting!:)
 

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HOSEA-4-v6 said:
A free country such as the United States can only exist in the past where EVERY CITIZEN had Weapons of War to keep their Government in Fear of the People it Served!

Now it is We The People who fear the "defacto government" that exist today.

This country was lost with Civil War One................
The South Was Right.
And not about slavery, but about States Rights.
Is there a museum somewhere that has all of Martin Luther King's guns on display? He must have had a TON of them to affect the changes HE did!:thumb:

Tell us some more. You're making my case beautifully!;)
 

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Dad said:
Is there a museum somewhere that has all of Martin Luther King's guns on display? He must have had a TON of them to affect the changes HE did!:thumb:

Tell us some more. You're making my case beautifully!;)
Now why must he have had a lot of guns? Just because he's black? That ain't right man. Besides, he had all the serial numbers shaved off his guns... they wouldn't display them in a museum. :twofinger
 

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Discussion Starter #8
"Reasonable gun ownership". So what is that? To whom is this "reasonable" directed or who defines "reasonable"?

I am not aware, being a member, that the NRA is extremeist, although they are right wing.

Many Democrats enjoy shooting sports and have no problem with firearms ownership. However, the bulk of the Democrat leadership are highly antigun. They want no one to be able to own guns, well, except for themselves. But no one else.

Is this what you mean by "reasonable gun ownership"?

I have never been to one of the NRA conventions, so perhaps things have been said that I am not aware of. However, I read their mag every month and so far, I really do not have any problems about it.

Mr. Bush because upset over the Ruby Ridge articles, I believe. When the NRA made comments about the jack booted thugs who attacked that family and murdered Randy Weaver's family members. I have no problem with that at all. The BATF has long been out of control and a bunch of jack booted thugs on more than a few occasions.

Congress has punished the BATF on more than one occasion as well for "being off the reservation" as they say.

politician does not honor the 2nd Amendment, then we question whether they will honor any of the others. So, we act accordingly.
But I do agree with you in the point of this article, more gun owners should be forming into powerful voting blocks, but for some reason, we do not.

Oh well.
 

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Many Democrats enjoy shooting sports and have no problem with firearms ownership. However, the bulk of the Democrat leadership are highly antigun. They want no one to be able to own guns, well, except for themselves. But no one else.
Canada is calling.........





Jen
 

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Remember remember the fifth of November
Gunpowder, treason, and plot.
I see no reason why gunpowder treason
should ever be forgot.

England - 1605
 

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crayder90 said:
Remember remember the fifth of November
Gunpowder, treason, and plot.
I see no reason why gunpowder treason
should ever be forgot.

England - 1605
Funny thing...I just watched V for Vandetta last night for like the 10th time. Man that movie is great!
 

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"V" ---- great movie!!


as for the Gov't banning Armor piercing bullets.. yadda.. yadda..

how bout we just just punish the fools that use them in a crime??

my Pistol is loaded and under my pillow as i type..
and it has never gotten up on its own and killed anyone.(yet!!)

seriously.. more laws are futile if the ones we already have are not enforced..

I like Florida.
10-20-life

10 if you HAVE a gun in a crime.
20 if you use the gun..
life if you shoot someone

I personallly would like to hear
"we the Jury find the dirtbag... GUILTY"... BANG!
dig a hole...
throw him in..
fahgitaboutit

Right wing....
like that is a bad thing...
sheesh!!

Florida 10-20-life clicky
 

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Man, I missed V when it was out in theatres and had to wait forever for it to come out on dvd.. and after all that anticipation.. I thought it sucked. I mean, yey for all the down with the oppressor! viva la revolution stuff, but is it too much to ask that a movie include a plot, and some believable characters that have some believable motives? I'm going to start locking up my friends in basements to prove how good of a friend I am to them......

Anyways, I think the reason Dad is reffering to NRA as extreme is due to some of their pre-emptive moves. Both sides are guilty of the same. The antigun lobby proposes something that sounds legitimate, but could pave the way to outlawing guns alltogher. The NRA doesnt take any chances and oppose it. I think the main issue being debated is the whole national gun database, complete with balistics for every gun sold.
Everyone seems to have their own opinion on that one..

HOSEA: does the body serve the oppressive mind, or does the mind serve the body by helping it live?
 

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fasterbusa said:
Why do we need a national ballistic database?

It is very expensive.
It does not work in the real world.
I didnt say we do. And you cant tell me that it doesnt work.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
No, it doesn't work.
They have been trying it in Canada for some time now and it has grown in expense and become so unworkable that they are considering stopping it.

How do you feel it will work well?

As you are a Mech Engineer, you understand how easy it is to defeat that registry and how quickly it can be done.

Or, the purchase of an extra barrel to swap is another method that can be used to defeat the system.

Most gun nuts feel that this type of database is an invasion of privacy as well as against the 4th and 5th Amendment.

For those who feel that this is a "good" system, then do you also favor a mandatory government program where each (and every) citizen has his DNA sampled and kept in a large database?

Afterall, this would (in theory) make it easy to find bad guys.
While only a movie, Gattica had a similar theme.

Before we set up this ballistic database, I would rather see that every male member of Congress (both Houses) have a sperm and semen sample taken and placed into a large database.

I mean, this way, whenever one of those pages get into a problem or there is another unidentified rape victim, the police could just quickly compare the database samples and see if there is a match. At least that way, we could be protecting our children.

If it only saves one child...is a recuring mantra used by most of the anti-gun elite. )To them, taking all guns, if it saves just one child, then that is an acceptable tradeoff.)
 

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fasterbusa: you raise many interesting points...

Do you oppose this registry on principle, or do you oppose it as invasion of privacy? I mean if there was a magical fully functioning, cheap way of doing it, would you still oppose it?

Here is the thing, yeah, its easy to get around. But there are going to be people who will not take the necessary steps (swapping or scrubbing the barrel). So it will be effective for some percentage. But that percantage may not be worth the extreme expence...

As for keeping records of induviduals, I got no problem with a gov DNA database. I know people shriek in horror. Right now such a database is unrealistic. It takes years to sequence the dna of a single induvidual... you get the point. But if that wasnt the case, I dont care. I'm tracked thru a SS number, DL number, Liscence plate, CC, and who knows what else. What do I care if someone adds another identifier to it? My take is that its not what information is collected but how that information is handled. Id like there to be strict rules about what can and cannot be done with that information.

I dont have a firm opinion on gun rights. Its not one of my hobbies so it doesnt affect me. I think the excuse of keeping guns so "the gov't fears its citizens" is crap. I think the logic of "if there was no guns there would be no crime" is crap. I lived in one country where all guns were banned, and in another where people openly carried submachine guns in public. And in both cases the situation was too complicated to say what effect guns had on crime..
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Hey there Vash!
I would still oppose this type of database, even if Harry Potter could just wave his wand and make it appear with no cost to anyone.

Perhaps, as you are not native born to this country, you do not see this as many of us do. Perhaps that means nothing at all.

However, in this country, we have many freedoms that other places do not. and this is a great thing.

We do not give up our freedoms lightly, as our history shows.

To just give this data up and have it gathered into a database, one has to ask the question of why.

Why does this need to be done, or more importantly, why do some what this done and what will it accomplish?

Is the answer that there are so many killed by guns that this information must be gathered?

Then a simple question would have to be asked; are there things out there that are killing more people than guns? If so, what is your plan for combatting that?

You see, cars kill more people than those murdered by guns every year, but there is no big ban on owning cars. Certainly, they are registered and such, but that also has to do with the gathering of tax money and licensing fees and insurance and so on.
And, cars are not covered in the Constitution as are guns.

So what else kills, like guns?
Well, do you know how many children drown in backyard swimming pools each year? More than the number, in the same age group, that die by guns.

So, we do not register pools. Well, not exactly, but often they are easy to see, unlike guns.

The reason people clamor for a ballistic database if to, again, interfere with legal, gun owning people. Instead of going after criminals who misuse guns, they seek to go after law abiding citizens.

So groups like the NRA and the RKBA org try to stop all these kinds of anti-gun games before they get too far because the NRA does understand the slippery-slope methodology of the anti-gun people.

How many gun crimes are committed by persons who are legally allowed to own guns? Not very many.

How many crimes are committed by criminals? Almost all of them.
Do criminals obey the laws? By definition, no.
Will criminals submit there illegally obtained guns for addition to a ballistic database? No.

What the ballistic database does is to make the law abiding citizen the bare the brunt of the "bad guys kill good people" campaign instead of going after the bad guys.

This country should not try to stop gun vilolence by criminals by forcing the law abiding gun owner to jump through so many hoops or suffer the erosion of there legal rights.

Instead, the gov should go after the bad guys and make the bad guys suffer the loss of rights and so on.
 
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