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Discussion Starter #1
I'm all for the wall/barrier along our southern border, plus more guards and hi-tech surveillance. A lot of people say it sends the wrong message. I say it sends the perfect message that we're tired of some crappy third world country dumping their low end unemployed on us. Legal immigration, yes.

Vincente Fox is shitting in our face. The Mexican army brutally enforces their southern border against Central Americans coming across. They can get up to two years in a Mexican prison, and that is real hard time. But Fox turns around and does everthing he can to get his unwanted across his northern border. I think people in the U.S. are starting to get mad about this, as I have been since the 1960s. :finger:
 

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Desert-Lad said:
I'm all for the wall/barrier along our southern border, plus more guards and hi-tech surveillance. A lot of people say it sends the wrong message. I say it sends the perfect message that we're tired of some crappy third world country dumping their low end unemployed on us. Legal immigration, yes.

Vincente Fox is shitting in our face. The Mexican army brutally enforces their southern border against Central Americans coming across. They can get up to two years in a Mexican prison, and that is real hard time. But Fox turns around and does everthing he can to get his unwanted across his northern border. I think people in the U.S. are starting to get mad about this, as I have been since the 1960s. :finger:
The parking lot of my work is ringed in Mexican day laborers every morning. They litter, they spit, they smoke. They jump infront of trucks trying to get attention, to get hired for the day. I for one have had enough.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
This is what got me going on this: ( http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/19/144336.shtml )

Mexico's Vicente Fox: U.S. Border Wall Plan 'Shameful"

Mexican President Vicente Fox stepped up his attacks on the United States' plan to build a fence along its southern border on Sunday, saying it was a "shameful" initiative for a democracy.

Fox said barriers between nations belonged to the last century and had been torn down by popular uprisings, referring to the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989.

"This wall is shameful," Fox said at an event for migrants in his home state of Guanajuato.

On Friday, the U.S. House of Representatives voted 239-182 in favor of an immigration enforcement bill, which includes a proposal to build 700 miles of fence through parts of California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.

Under the bill, soldiers and police would help stop people sneaking across, and employers would have to check the legal status of their workers.

Fox said the measures were hypocritical for a country made up of immigrants.

"When we look at their roots, the immense majority are migrants, migrants that have arrived from all over the world," he said.

Since he came into power in 2000, Fox has lobbied the U.S. government to allow more Mexicans to work legally in the United States.

President Bush has proposed a new guest worker program with three-year work visas, but lawmakers refused to include the program in the immigration bill passed Friday.

U.S. authorities estimate there are about 11 million undocumented migrants in the United States, about half of them Mexican.
 

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Hi All-

We don't even need a sophisticated wall with electronic sensors and 24 x 7 x 365 security. Simply erect two tall chainlink fences a half-mile apart. The no-man's-land between should be a dense minefield that would ensure a quick and painless death to anyone who foolishly scales the fences or attempts to dig beneath them.

Signs and audio announcements could be made in a variety of languages advising visitors to use the appropriate points of documented entry to prevent fatalities. It would only take three or four intruders getting blown to smithereens for the message to spread through the folks considering illegal entry.

It might initially sound harsh, but extensive use of landmines would actually prevent deaths and greatly reduce human trafficking and indentured slavery.

~ Blue Jays ~
 

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I agree the immigration population needs to be controlled a little better, but at the same time, i can't criticize it too much, I'm a 2nd generation american, and if there were those really stringent laws, I don't think I'd be here today.

From what I hear it can be a long process to become a legal immigrant, time that some people just don't have. some of these unemployed illegal immigrants have moved here to look for a better life, even if it means doing all the dirty and menial jobs out there, it still means a job for them.

This is still considered the land of opportunity for a lot of people, but w/ that in mind... the land is filling up and I don't mind letting people in as long as they are contributing to society, and not a hinderance.

I'd rather deport the drug-addicted/alcoholic homeless as well as those only taking advantage of welfare before we totally try to close our borders to those that just want a chance for a better life :2cents:
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Lost Nomad said:
I agree the immigration population needs to be controlled a little better, but at the same time, i can't criticize it too much, I'm a 2nd generation american, and if there were those really stringent laws, I don't think I'd be here today.

From what I hear it can be a long process to become a legal immigrant, time that some people just don't have. some of these unemployed illegal immigrants have moved here to look for a better life, even if it means doing all the dirty and menial jobs out there, it still means a job for them.

This is still considered the land of opportunity for a lot of people, but w/ that in mind... the land is filling up and I don't mind letting people in as long as they are contributing to society, and not a hinderance.

I'd rather deport the drug-addicted/alcoholic homeless as well as those only taking advantage of welfare before we totally try to close our borders to those that just want a chance for a better life :2cents:
Every country has the right to control who crosses their border. Are these people criminals, do they have diseases like TB, are any of them terriorists, and so on. I also feel sorry for their plight but Mexico has to take care of their own first. Look at New Orleans. We have a lot of our own problems to deal with.

This invasion has got to be stopped and if it takes a fence, and other means, then so be it. A lot of people think this is racial since most of the U.S. is white and Mexicans are Hispanic. I am German by heritage and I don't care if it was Germany on our southern or northern border. They just cannot enter this country in violation of our laws. No other country on earth allows even one person to jump their border and we can't either.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Blue Jays said:
Hi All-

We don't even need a sophisticated wall with electronic sensors and 24 x 7 x 365 security. Simply erect two tall chainlink fences a half-mile apart. The no-man's-land between should be a dense minefield that would ensure a quick and painless death to anyone who foolishly scales the fences or attempts to dig beneath them.

Signs and audio announcements could be made in a variety of languages advising visitors to use the appropriate points of documented entry to prevent fatalities. It would only take three or four intruders getting blown to smithereens for the message to spread through the folks considering illegal entry.

It might initially sound harsh, but extensive use of landmines would actually prevent deaths and greatly reduce human trafficking and indentured slavery.

~ Blue Jays ~
I agree, and I bet a lot of other people do as well. But due to political correctness they wouldn't say so.
 

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Blue Jays said:
Hi All-

We don't even need a sophisticated wall with electronic sensors and 24 x 7 x 365 security. Simply erect two tall chainlink fences a half-mile apart. The no-man's-land between should be a dense minefield that would ensure a quick and painless death to anyone who foolishly scales the fences or attempts to dig beneath them.

Signs and audio announcements could be made in a variety of languages advising visitors to use the appropriate points of documented entry to prevent fatalities. It would only take three or four intruders getting blown to smithereens for the message to spread through the folks considering illegal entry.

It might initially sound harsh, but extensive use of landmines would actually prevent deaths and greatly reduce human trafficking and indentured slavery.

~ Blue Jays ~
All thou this would work. There are to many liberals in the world to allow some thing like this in a free country.
 

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Lost Nomad said:
I agree the immigration population needs to be controlled a little better, but at the same time, i can't criticize it too much, I'm a 2nd generation american, and if there were those really stringent laws, I don't think I'd be here today.

From what I hear it can be a long process to become a legal immigrant, time that some people just don't have. some of these unemployed illegal immigrants have moved here to look for a better life, even if it means doing all the dirty and menial jobs out there, it still means a job for them.

This is still considered the land of opportunity for a lot of people, but w/ that in mind... the land is filling up and I don't mind letting people in as long as they are contributing to society, and not a hinderance.

I'd rather deport the drug-addicted/alcoholic homeless as well as those only taking advantage of welfare before we totally try to close our borders to those that just want a chance for a better life :2cents:
+1.
Dont get me wrong I got nothing against the fence concept, except perhaps the cost. But understand that america does need to reform its immigration code, so as to make legal immigration possible. Right now its a long process (5-10years), requiring a great deal of cash, and whats worse subject to acts of random buerocracy.
Like nomad, I think that what is important is an induviduals contribution to society and not place of birth. But a country must be able to regulate its immigration, it should simply be abit smarter about it.


Bluey, no personal offence here, but your suggestion is downright stupid, or at least highly impractical. Great, you got a no mans land. First person hopes across and blows a hole 15' in diameter. It takes a chunk of the fence with it, and most likely sets a few secondary explosions. The next person is going to have a much easier time sneaking across, so work crews have to be sent to re-mine the field. That means bringing bulldozers into a mine field.
So even ignoring the damage this would do to our public image, it would be very very impractical.
 

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Whoa, what kind of land mines are using vash? 15ft hole, holy crap.... Yes I know this would never happen, but I think he was thinking more on the lines of bouncing betties. Not a tank mine rigged for low pressure like a human foot.

Look at you Vash, you spent the time and effort to come to this country. Personally if I did that it would piss me off even more if people just decided that was to much work and came illegally. I'm not taking your stance wrong here Vash...

Regan wanted gun towers put up like every 500 yards. People smashed that idea. It would take a lot away from the military just to keep those running 24hrs. Maybe not mines but dogs? People don't stop and think anymore they just bitch. No we can't have mines that's inhumane. No we can't have dogs that's cruel. Why are my taxes going up all the time? Oh, maybe it has something to do with me voting against these things and for good treatment of illegal immigrants. Now they can cross the border no problem, get arrested, and have more rights and better treatment that an American citizen in the judicial system. But they just want a better life... That's fine but do it the right way. A criminal is a criminal.

So build the wall, put up gun towers, put in the mine fields. I guarantee it will cost us less in the long run than housing and jailing and deporting a bunch of people that shouldn't be here in the first place.

DING!!! :twofinger

-M-
 

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mstrand_68 said:
So build the wall, put up gun towers, put in the mine fields. I guarantee it will cost us less in the long run than housing and jailing and deporting a bunch of people that shouldn't be here in the first place.
Line the border with a tank battery, or whatever you wish, it wont really solve the problem. Border enforcment is just one part of the equation. Yes, you need to be able to enforce your own laws. But you also have to have the right laws in place.

Instead if spending all this money holding jose in jail, let him pay taxes on roofing houses. He's already doing the work. If you kick him out, you gotta find a new source of cheap labor. I mean someone has to clean up NO.
People wouldnt subject themselves to possible slavery if they could just walk into the american consulate and say "Hi, I'd like to live in the US", and the clerk would say "Fill out this form, put down a $10k deposit, and we'll mail you a ticket once your background check comes back clean". This would be a simple rational way of doing things. If the gov't thought that they were getting a surplas of labor they could simply up the fees.
But its not the way it works. See first you gotta have a sponsor, who is a US citizen (so someone has to know you. Abit strange, but not unreasonable request). If the sponsor is a husband/wife, you gotta prove that you are really merried. If its an employer, then they gotta prove they couldnt hire an american for the same position. Its not that asking for such proof is unreasonable, its that providing it is too damn costly. But we'll get past that. You got a sponsor. (Keep in mind you already spent at least a year, and a few grand)
Then INS looks at its quotas. And it says "I'm sorry we already took 20k people from your country this decade, we've hit our quote. Please try again later." Meanwhile people from other countries can still go. Untill their quota is filled. The smart thing to do at this point is to reapply at another state.
To make metters worse this is all run by a giant gov't organization that makes FEMA look like a well oiled machine. And the applicants, by their very nature, arent familuar with this system. Applications get rejected for reasons like "Stapled in the wrong corner". To add insult to injury, INS runs the "greencard lottery".
So now the hypothetical person has to decide between breaking the law that he doesnt understand so that he can have a chance of providing a future for his family.
 

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Vash said:
Bluey, no personal offence here, but your suggestion is downright stupid, or at least highly impractical. Great, you got a no mans land. First person hopes across and blows a hole 15' in diameter. It takes a chunk of the fence with it, and most likely sets a few secondary explosions. The next person is going to have a much easier time sneaking across, so work crews have to be sent to re-mine the field. That means bringing bulldozers into a mine field. So even ignoring the damage this would do to our public image, it would be very very impractical.
Vash, what illegal alien is going to volunteer to be the first one to attempt to cross a well-advertised landmined border? We're talking about sophisticated and mapped fields of small anti-personnel explosives. The fences would remain unharmed in my scenario. The dummies who didn't think we were being serious about protecting our borders would soon understand the simple and clear message.

This concept of "public image perception" is truly an American dilemma that we have caused to ourselves. If I were to visit a random European country...let's say Austria, for example...and there were signs in a variety of languages (including English) informing that the rural border between Germany and Austria was landmined, I certainly would NOT be offended by that policy. I would make darn sure to use the appropriate and legal border crossings and NOT sneak under fences, over walls, and through thick underbrush to sneak between the two sovereign countries.

The other benefit is the disgusting crimes of human trafficking and indentured servitude would be virtually solved within weeks. Attempting to gain entry into the United States by means other than legal would just be too risky.

~ Blue Jays ~
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Vash: There has got to be an understanding about legal vs. illegal immigration. Almost everyone is for legal immigration since that is how all of us got here over time, except for Native Americans. The argument that the U.S. is powerful and rich and the poor of the world just need work and a better life goes just so far. We have lost much of our manufacturing base over the last 30 years and our automobile industry may be the next to go. The world is equalizing out more and more every day. We have got to modernize and retrain much of the American public for the 21st century. We have major economic problems on the way and cheap labor will not solve it. We need highly educated and skilled labor.

As far as cheap labor:

I have scrubbed toilets, picked fruit, dug ditches and did about every other back breaking job known to man. Like many other others I did this while working for an education and a better life. There are many resident Americans who would be willing to do this work vs. welfare or hunger.

One of the arguments is that we can’t get produce to market without cheap labor and that foreign imports of fruits and vegetables will put our growers out of business. This goes for clothing and other manufactured items. We need to get tough with countries that don’t have OSHA type safety laws, minimum wages, child labor laws, environmental protection regulations and all of the other hurdles American businesses have to pay for. No f_____g wonder they are under cutting us on prices! If these countries don’t adopt these basic laws, and the cost that goes with them, then we should put up tariffs or outright ban their products. It will cost more for us to buy things but it is worth it. True they will cut our products off, but we will just buy our own stuff instead of their stuff.

One estimate is that the average American saves $600 a year buying cheaper Chinese imports while average annual salaries in our “rust belt” have dropped $6,000 over the last 20 years due to manufacturers relocating out of country. I used to buy a latte every day at $3.80 each, or over a grand a year. I’m willing pay a little more for produce and underwear and keep jobs in America.

We have no obligation to solve the worlds problems. Let’s say we let one out of every ten people in the world come to the U.S. That would be around 600 million people, raising our population to 900 million. Using the cheap labor argument, we would have 29 cent Whoppers. I don’t really think we need 900 million under educated, non-English speaking people here who don’t give a rat’s ass about America or what it stands for. Fine, they just want a better life. So do I.

There is nothing but misery that comes with massive violation of our borders. Drug smuggling, people spending their life fortunes to get here only to be left in the middle of the Arizona desert without food or water, and as B-Jays said, many of these illegals have to accept sub-standard pay and treatment and a life of fear because they can’t go to any authorities. This whole situation is bad and is getting worse. Sealing the border to, once again, illegal immigration is imperative. Let’s not forget OTMs (other than Mexicans) coming here for who knows what. In the last several years people from 70+ countries around the world have been caught crossing our borders, both north and south. We watch our airports with a vengeance but yawn while millions crash our land borders. Brilliant.

As far as Mexico, they have enormous natural resources that rivals ours. Oil, gold, silver, timber, fisheries and etc. Mexico has a very wealthy middle-upper class that keeps everything and excludes the lower classes. They have got to change their laws and culture. There is no reason they could not be as prosperous as the U.S. Here in the U.S. private ownership is fundamental to our wealth. Mexico, like almost every other country in the world, does not fully protect private ownership. Find oil on your property and guess who owns it? Here in the U.S. it is the property owner. In Mexico and other countries it is the government. There is no incentive in most countries for someone to bust their ass to create wealth.

Again, I do feel sorry for these illegal immigrants but life is a bitch. These countries need to clean up their own house and not shove their problems on us. The old “Give us your tired, poor, huddled masses” or however it goes was OK a hundred years ago but not now. BTW, we took those huddled masses through legal immigration.

Once we seal our borders we will see Mexico get seroius about reforms.
 

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Ok, so we have an informed opinion. One at a time.
Bluey:
European borders were mined during time of war. Right now those fields present a huge problem since no one knows just how to clear them. And based on people trying to escape over the mined borders of the FSU, I'd say someone is going to try it here as well.

Desert:
What in the world does immigration have to do with outsourcing. I understand that both involve forigners, but thats where the simularities end. If anything immigrants accepting substandard wages could be used as a solution.
I think everyone is in full agreement that legal immigration is prefered. But it is not always an option. The laws in place (which are not the same as the ones that accepted the huddled masses) are simply a collection of different tabs politicians added in to make themselves look better. It is not a unified system with a goal in mind.
Here is my point. You have people around the world who wish to come and live here. Many of them could be a benefit (Not all are under educated you know). However you got no efficient, clear avenue which those people can use to accomplish their goals. So they are forced to jump the border. If you put a bunch of guns on the border, you are just going to have to clean up bodies. People will still sneak thru.

Its no different than trying to win the war on drugs with enforcement alone.

To make metters worse, all this talk of sealing borders always mentions, but never explains, what should be done with the 11 (or so) million people already here. Give them legal status? But that would invite others to sneak across. Say that they broke the law and should be punished? Maybe, but what about their children, the ones who never had to make such a decision?
 

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Very well said Desert-Lad. I think we as Americans need to start thinking about Americans. We need to stand up for patritism. Call people out when they talk about sympathizing unamerican things. Lets be proud of who we are. And you can have empathy for anyone, you can put yourself in their shoes that's fine. A hand up not a hand out. But if you put the bar to low all you will get is low expectations. If you make it more difficult to come in, you will get people that really want to become Americans and will contribute to our capitalist ideas. oh, and on a side note. If illegals don't do the grunt work, then legals will do the grunt work. I mean it will force companies to pay fair wages to legals doing the work. Not high wages but better then what they get now. So they then can aspire to be someone even better, then even better then that, get it. The american dream.* Every country needs a wall. Case in point, why do you take the keys out of the ignition? Lock your doors at night? Visualize your surroundings when in public. It keeps honest people honest, and bad people out.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Vash said:
.....what should be done with the 11 (or so) million people already here. Give them legal status? But that would invite others to sneak across. Say that they broke the law and should be punished? Maybe, but what about their children, the ones who never had to make such a decision?
I have absolutely no idea what to do with the illegals here already. There are good and bad arguments on all sides. But, my logic says that if we are trying to get out of a hole the first thing we do is stop digging. This 11 million will grow and grow unless we secure our borders. Once we solve that part of the equation then we can try to figure out the rest. All I am saying is first things first.
 

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I think we're mostly in agreement. Except that perhaps I dont believe any wall will effectivly seal the border without a working legal alternative. I havent heard you voice much about that.
 

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Jus_Livin' said:
I think we as Americans need to start thinking about Americans. We need to stand up for patritism. Call people out when they talk about sympathizing unamerican things. Lets be proud of who we are.
Also statements like that scare the shit out of me. Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious.
 

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"A hand up, not a hand out." Cheers on that one.

This could go on and on, but really there's no point. America is full of sue happy cry babies. They want to challenge everything that might make this country better. They care more about other people than Americans. "Oh Americans might benifit but what about poor Jose? Whats he going to do?" Jus_livin' said it right, we Americans need to start thinking about Americans. Until we get our country cleaned up, as in poor, homeless, ect., piss on everyone else. If Jose wants a better life don't jump the border and shit on America. Rally your other border jumpers and change your country. We also need to stand out against the people that hire these border jumpers. If thats the only way you can make your buisness run then you shouldn't be running a buisness. What about their children? What about our children is the real question. If we got 5 million illegal children and wondering what to do with them? To bad, so sad. Send their ass back to wherever they came from and start thinking about how to help the American children in need. We need to just stop giving a shit about illegal fucking people and worry about ourselves. Don't say its not fair to them because its not fair to us. Who is more important to you, Americans or someone who came here illegally? It's really that simple. If you didn't say Americans then stop and think. Look at our flag, people fought and died for that flag. Why so Americans could have a better life. So their children could have a better life. You think Jose gives a shit about that???

-M-
 
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