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alright folks!

here's the scoop.. Tai (Neo) and i were returning from a heck of a day at summit point on tuesday when we came across Officer XX (??).

coming back from Summit Point we were on a 55 mph stretch coming around a corner with Tai in the right lane and me in the left lane. well what do we see?? a cop car sitting on the shoulder of the road, with radar pointing through the back and the Officer looking at us through his rear-view mirror.

we had not even crossed him before he had his lights on and was starting to merge into the traffic. dutifully we both pull over and the cop walks up to us.

barely listens to us and says that he is going to write us up for an 80 mph reckless ticket (in VA, 20+ over the limit is considered a reckless which is 6 points on your record).

he hands us both tickets which state that we were being cited for reckless driving. i look over the ticket to see what speed he wrote us down so that i could calculate how much the ticket was going to cost me. BUT THERE WAS NO SPEED MENTIONED!!

so i ask the officer what speed did he clock us at. his response, "i only got the first bike at 84 mph and will tell the judge that the second bike was going just as fast since it was next to the first!!!!!" now i have serious issues with this statement! :mad:

a/ initially when pulled over he said we were going 80 mph. now he says 84 mph but has not written it anywhere on the ticket what speed he caught us at.

b/ how can he assume that the second bike was going the same speed as the first!

c/ if 20+ the limit constitutes a reckless then what was our speed? since he did not write the speed on the ticket then how can he issue us a reckless ticket? isnt he contradicting himself?

d/ according to him, the radar only caught the first bike that came around the corner. since he was looking through his rear-view mirror he doesnt even know which one it was!

so what do you guys think? i havent spoken to a lawyer yet, but it seems to me like this ticket has quite a few holes in it. should tai and i try to fight this on our own or get a lawyer.

both our records are clean and this is the last thing that i want.

also, check this out. i handed the officer the registration of my STOLEN F4 and he actually WROTE me up on that bike. i could not believe it. only when i got the ticket back did i notice that he did this. so i brought to his attention that he wrote me up on a stolen bike and asked him if he ran a check on the bike or not? he admitted to not have checked out the bike and just took the info for the gixxer afterwards! talk about incompetence!! how would i love to bust him up in court.....AAAARRRGGGGHHH!!!

thanks for hearing me out and yeah please advise on the best course of action.

thanks

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arif
 
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What a dick!

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If somebody sounds as though they might know more than you, talk more and louder.
 

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I believe Todd's the authority (seriously no pun intended) on this topic :)

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plead no guilty buddy, maybe he won't show.

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Tony

the views and opinions expressed by tony (cbrf2boy) are the ramblings of a total idiot. sbw.com, it's administrators, moderators, and members don't necessarily agree with and are not responsible for anything this idiot has to say.

for more ramblings try cbrf2boy
 

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Wow! This is a good one that is definitely worth fighting.
Did either of the tickets show the speed at which you were pulled over for?
Did either of you see what was actually recorded onto the radar?
One ticket was written up for a stolen bike and the other ticket, was it correct?
In Texas, if there are any, ANY, errors, even just one - then it is thrown out of court.
Since there is no mph posted on the ticket the officer really has no case. You need to ask the judge "How fast were you going" and if he can not see an mph then what can he charge you for? You have an excellent case. I never get this lucky :(
1 ticket - has wrong bike, no mph and the officer doesn't even know who was speeding.
The other ticket has no mph, either. No other errors?
We know that both of you were riding together, but the judge doesn't. The judge will most likely ask who was in the left lane, the passing lane. That person was speeding but how fast, he does not know. The police officer can not come to court and say "they were both going 80+ mph" because he has no evidence(pictures, videotape,or ticket).

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Todd Hoffmaster
'00 Katana 600
39 speeding tickets and now I have a V1.
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Aril, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by arif CBRF4:


barely listens to us and says that he is going to write us up for an 80 mph reckless ticket (in VA, 20+ over the limit is considered a reckless which is 6 points on your record).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ouch. bummer. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Aril, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>
he hands us both tickets which state that we were being cited for reckless driving. i look over the ticket to see what speed he wrote us down so that i could calculate how much the ticket was going to cost me. BUT THERE WAS NO SPEED MENTIONED!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


don't count on this mattering at all. i certainly don't know what the law is like in your state, but i betcha that his sworn testimony that you were doing >20 mph in excess of the speedlimit is all that's needed in court to justify his writing the ticket. i doubt it makes a particle of difference if he wrote it down or not.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Aril, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>
so i ask the officer what speed did he clock us at. his response, "i only got the first bike at 84 mph and will tell the judge that the second bike was going just as fast since it was next to the first!!!!!" now i have serious issues with this statement! :mad:

a/ initially when pulled over he said we were going 80 mph. now he says 84 mph but has not written it anywhere on the ticket what speed he caught us at.

b/ how can he assume that the second bike was going the same speed as the first! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


look out. there's all this stuff they pull about observation ability. if he swears he saw the two of you not moving further apart, that may well be enough to prove that you were both moving the same speed.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Aril, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>

c/ if 20+ the limit constitutes a reckless then what was our speed? since he did not write the speed on the ticket then how can he issue us a reckless ticket? isnt he contradicting himself?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
no. failing to mention what made it reckless is nothing like a contradiction. a contradiction would require him to write down that you were going less than 20+ and cite you for recklessness due to speed. frankly, i bet they can write you up for a reckless ticket for a variety of things, just that 20+ is easier to prosecute so they made it "automatic." i don't know, but i betcha. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Aril, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>
d/ according to him, the radar only caught the first bike that came around the corner. since he was looking through his rear-view mirror he doesnt even know which one it was!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this won't matter if he swears that he got a good bead on one, and observed long enough to see that they were moving at the same rate of speed (not changing distance relative to each other). <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Aril, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>

so what do you guys think? i havent spoken to a lawyer yet, but it seems to me like this ticket has quite a few holes in it. should tai and i try to fight this on our own or get a lawyer.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I would NOT fight it on my own. 6 pts is waay to serious. i agree, the ticket sounds like it may well be contestable, but not for many of the reasons you've stated. but a good traffic lawyer could prolly eat into the state's case pretty well. you would probably get eaten alive. the judge doesn't want to listen to you anyway, and will only if he has to. that's what lawyers are good for. forget perry mason. technicalities aren't always all they're cracked up to be, esp. if you don't know how to handle them but the prosecutor does. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Aril, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>

talk about incompetence!! how would i love to bust him up in court.....AAAARRRGGGGHHH!!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

then get a lawyer. they may be able to do it. you would probably just have to see him victorious should you fight it on your own. there are websites and books dedicated to how to fight your own traffic ticket, should you decide to fight it yourself. but i wouldn't. if you do decided to go lawyerless, the best thing that could happen would be that the cop doesn't show. the best way to make that happen is to get the date moved a couple of times. you get your scheduled date, then call in with having to be out of town and ask them to reschedule. then call in sick. i've heard this often works. i don't know what the obligations are on the court to allow you to reschedule, but you might give it a try.
but go read up on how to fight traffic tickets without a lawyer... scared me out of wanting to try it but there is some valuable info. (i haven't had a ticket in like 20 years or something, so its not been put to the test... but)

i'll post a link later if i can find it.


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99 sv650 (red)

Austin Sportbikes

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I would get a lawyer... but you do stand a good chance of winning.. My advice, if you dont get a lawyer, if asked who was in front or who was in which lane, say you dont recall.. or it is hard to recall since you were trading spots the whole day. Definately use the fact that the cop was looking through his rearview mirror when he judged the situation. someone was on radar but not both, if he cant prove which it was, or how far apart you were, or if one was going a bit slower, etc.. there are alot of holes here, but that doesnt mean youwill win. If the cop is buds with the judge etc, (dunno how small a town this is) then you might be s.o.l.

Most statutes state that the offense has to be proven BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT. Now if the law says 20+ is AUTOMATICALLY wreckless than thats not good. But if it states that 20+ CAN BE wreckless than all you have to do is prove BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT that you may have been speeding, but in no way were you "wreckless". If you have a good judge and a better lawyer you can illustrate this very easily when combined with the officer's mistakes.

Try a plea bargain, and GET A LAWYER on this one, it really is your only chance.

Spend some money and buck the system. better than spending some money on officer XX's new dress blues.

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Fear Green.

[This message has been edited by GreenNinja (edited September 08, 2000).]
 

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Aril, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by His_Suzuki:
Wow! This is a good one that is definitely worth fighting.
Did either of the tickets show the speed at which you were pulled over for?
Did either of you see what was actually recorded onto the radar?
One ticket was written up for a stolen bike and the other ticket, was it correct?
In Texas, if there are any, ANY, errors, even just one - then it is thrown out of court.
Since there is no mph posted on the ticket the officer really has no case. You need to ask the judge "How fast were you going" and if he can not see an mph then what can he charge you for? You have an excellent case. I never get this lucky :(
1 ticket - has wrong bike, no mph and the officer doesn't even know who was speeding.
The other ticket has no mph, either. No other errors?
We know that both of you were riding together, but the judge doesn't. The judge will most likely ask who was in the left lane, the passing lane. That person was speeding but how fast, he does not know. The police officer can not come to court and say "they were both going 80+ mph" because he has no evidence(pictures, videotape,or ticket).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this was not my experience here in texas. i was written up in my car in 1983. the officer was, i think, drunk. he wrote down the wrong time. he wrote down the wrong street. he wrote down the make of car (wrote down escort, i was in a rabbit.) he just totally made a hash of the ticket. i had no lawyer. i contested the ticket. i was found guilty anyway, and paid.

things are rarely that simple. as for his having no evidence, he has his "expert" status as a trooper, and his observation. the prosecutor has his sworn testimony. he may have a notebook. he may have his "recollection." don't count on these little things making any kind of difference... they may or may not. a lawyer will know if they do, and how to leverage them properly. i tell you, i think you'll get eaten alive trying these kinds of excuses. the judge will think you're tyring to wriggle out of a ticket that you rightfully earned, and he will show no leniency. look out.



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99 sv650 (red)

Austin Sportbikes

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tafka, if that ticket had been in AZ the judge would have thrown it out in 2 seconds, no questions asked. You got screwed over... better luck next time.

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Fear Green.
 

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1. The officer saw you thru the rearview mirror. He wasn't even facing you.
2. No mph written on the ticket, the judge can only right you for 20 over, only because the police officer wrote down reckless driving. But it should not hold up in the court.
3. In Texas, if you have wrong car, wrong street, and other wrongful information on your ticket, the judge has to throw it out. If you knew that you had that many errors and you did/do not get a lawyer, then yes you will lose. Only because, it's obvious that you are admitting the guilty plea.
4. The judge might ask as to why you gave the officer the wrong information about your bike, which is against the law, but as you stated, you tried to tell the officer that the information was wrong and he did not change it out.
A lawyer has to be cheaper than 6 pts. and increased insurance rates. Very easy for him to win this case.

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Todd Hoffmaster
'00 Katana 600
39 speeding tickets and now I have a V1.
 

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How fast were you going? In my experience when a cop knowingly writes you up for a speed other than the speed you were traveling, he never shows up in court.

I once got a ticket for doing 59 in a 35. I told the officer that my speedometer was reading 45 and I know it is not that inacurate. He wrote me the ticket anyway. I told him I would take it to court, he said "good luck" and snickerd. I showed to court, and he was nowhere to be found. The judge even told me that he was so tired of seeing me, and that he hoped the cop showed just so he could fine me.

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Colin
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How do you know that the cop even clocked you? Did he show you the reading? When was the radar gun last calibrated? They do have to calibrate them and record that they did and what the discrepancies were, if any. Normally, they just use a tuning fork, but if it is off by 5 or more mph, it has to be sent in for servicing.
There is a website to help you beat speeding tickets. I do not have it written down, or memmorized yet, but you can find it on pretty much any radar detector site. Try the www.Valentine1.com my favorite site :) or just go here - http://www.uop.edu/~jthor/radar.html

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Todd Hoffmaster
'00 Katana 600
39 speeding tickets and now I have a V1.
 

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Yes, I'm caught up into this one :Dhttp://www.speedingticket.net/ http://www.web-sys.net/~fulcher/

I love computers. They are full of such great information :)


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Todd Hoffmaster
'00 Katana 600
39 speeding tickets and now I have a V1.
 

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Ok.....someone has to play devil's advocate, so it may as well be me. I think you are making to big a deal out of what appears to be NO mistakes.

1. The officer changed the info about the bike on the tix. There is no mistake.

2. The indicated speed may NOT HAVE to be listed on that kind of tix in his state. I would bet that it is most deffinately written on the officer's copy(there is an area for officer's notes on the back of the cop's copy that he fills out after the stop, to include weather info, traffic density, speed and direction of travel, and radar info).

3. Only getting one bike on radar--this is not uncommon. Part of the training to get certified to run radar is to learn "Tracking History". They teach you that the radar is not a "stand alone device", but a tool to back up what the officer has already seen. His statement in court would go something like this, "I was parked on Hwy XX, mile post 123, monitoring traffic. I observed two motorcycles traveling (whatever direction), side by side at a visually estimated speed of 85mph. Both vehicles appeared to be travelling at the same speed. Radar unit ABC indicated the speed of the vehicles at 84mph".

4. Not showing you the radar. Most states, (that I know of) have gotten away from this practice for safety reasons.

With that said, I would still go to court, IF you are willing to gamble the cost of the lawyer. You won't get fined MORE for trying. It all depends on your state laws. Go ask a lawyer. It may not even cost you anything for the first consultation.

Good Luck

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That don't fix it? Get a bigger Hammer
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Couple things
1) my experiance Va doesn't like motorcycles or speeders. I was in the Navy then but..
2) No consultation fees. Don't go to a lawyer unless it free, but a lawyer, you should go see.
3) Most traffic courts are biased against us (motorcycles) in particular and against the driver in general. Recently, I got a ticket for careless driving. I was scuffing in my new rear tire, 3 miles from the shop that put it on. Going back and forth between the two grooves in one lane, traveling at the speed of the few cars that were around me. They were not close but in the area on a 4 lane road with turn lanes and a median. Regardless of the letter from the mechanic and my explanation of the circumstances, I guilty adjudication withheld. That means I paid the fines have the ticket on my DL history but no points. I don't think it was fair, and I may of won with a lawyer, who knows.
4) your clean record will help you only once the decision is made against you, and then it is to late to keep it a clean record if you go alone to the judge.
Good luck

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Depending how expensive the ticket will be, get a lawyer, tell him your story. If someone can plea bargain a Murder charge to assault with intent..blah blah blah. You can definately plea down a stupid speeding ticket.

Xert

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Don't make the common mistake of believing that truth or logic has anything to do with legal matters. Courtrooms function on points of law, and little else. Pointing out technicalities and procedural errors tend to work against you. The word of a cop will carry more weight than yours, so don't depend on that to get you off the hook.
A reckless driving ticket is very serious, and it is definitely worth fighting, but you really will need a lawyer. I lied my way out of one not too long ago, but that was in a courtroom in a small southern town, where they don't feel as much of a hurry to get rid of you because there are 14000 more waiting.
Search this site on tickets. Good luck.

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