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  Topic Review (Newest First)
04-14-2008 10:54 AM
ZX6R1033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash View Post
Ditto. Abortion will become a thing of the past when technology allows it to be. When a form of birth control arrives that will make people sterile unless they specifically take a step to avoid it, can be so long term that it is close to permanent, and (*gasp*) can be used by both sexes, and preferably can be applied at birth, then we can safely make abortions illegal, since there will be no use for them.

You found any investors yet? How about your staffing needs?

04-14-2008 06:05 AM
Vash Ditto. Abortion will become a thing of the past when technology allows it to be. When a form of birth control arrives that will make people sterile unless they specifically take a step to avoid it, can be so long term that it is close to permanent, and (*gasp*) can be used by both sexes, and preferably can be applied at birth, then we can safely make abortions illegal, since there will be no use for them.



04-14-2008 05:45 AM
mkeeney
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash View Post
Mkeeny: Best pro-choice argument I've heard so far. Incidentally, best pro-life argument I've heard was that birth rates in civilized countries are dropping below replacement rate.

....
Ironically, I hate the idea of abortion. I've known two women who had them (no, neither of them mine) and they both hate abortion because of their experience. If I had a way to eliminate it I would, but making it illegal is not the solution, and it's not my place to dictate the circumstances under which abortion is acceptable. I think the process of seeking an abortion is humbling enough without requiring further justification. We have to start at the root cause and eliminate the need for abortion. Unfortunately, the people who would ban abortion are also against the education necessary to prevent unwanted pregnancies. They're afraid if they talk about sex that teens will want to engage in it. Hormones have already taken care of that though, and without open and honest education, teens discover everything on their own, resulting in accidental pregnancies.

We're not really all that far removed from the dark ages yet.
04-11-2008 12:22 PM
snakesht Just google Ramos and Compean, you should be able to find something.
04-11-2008 12:18 PM
Vash Well snake, we agreed earlier that society can do more with more people, as long as they can be orginized together. Having fewer people in the best orginized societies would seem like a bad thing. In addition to simply becoming weaker (might offset by increases in productivity) the society also has more old people than descendants. And when those people retire, you have a problem. Even if they all managed to save for their retirement, labor supply drops, price of labor increases, price of goods increases, and inflation follows. And then there is the cultural suicide aspect of all that.

On the immigration subject, I think the test is the part I have the least objections with. I think the length of the process is pretty rediculous, I think the sponsor system should be replaced with an australian like score system (In the US one has to be sponsored for citizenship by another US citizen, and is ones spouse, adult child, sibling, or employer. In australia, one has to accumulate a certain point value to be considered eligable. Points are awarded for being able to speak english, having higher education, being of a certain education, etc etc. Wouldnt we better off seing a message to mexico that to become a US citizen you are better off getting a degree, rather then seeking a relative who is already a citizen?). My biggest objection is with the requirement that those whom are already here exit the country and re-enter, as opposed to say, paying a penalty fine.

The article you linked to is blocked on this network



04-11-2008 11:50 AM
snakesht Vash,
Is it really a bad thing that birth rates are below replacement rates? With the population growth of the planet, it wouldn't hurt to slow things down a little bit at least for a while. I agree and disagree with your views on abortion, and you have made some very good points. It's just such a controversial topic that it seems there is no good solution.

And yes, I think we've been misunderstanding each other and arguing about something that we might both agree about. First off, sorry about the immigration test comment. I must have gotten that when I was on a different forum the same time I was reading your post and the topic was almost the same, so part of what I said had nothing to do with your post. Sorry for the confusion on that, just proves I can't multi task. Somebody there was talking about how difficult the tests were. I do think that immigrants should have more than just a cursory knowledge of our country, and should be fluent in english. However, has english ever been officially deemed our national language? I heard an argument a while back that our country has never established an official language. +1 on minimizing multiculturalism. It's ok to a point, but assimilation is better. But given the diversity of our citizens, you're always going to have to accept at least some level of multiculturalism.

As for the Border Patrol agents, here is an article. You can find a lot more through some simple searching. Granted it's an issue with our judicial system but if I were an agent, I would certainly be hesitant to do my job after an ordeal like that.

On to libertarians, I was listening to Neal Boortz today encouraging everyone who is a libertarian to register as one (in states where you register) and if polled, tell them you are libertarian and voting as such. The point of that is to bring more attention to the candidates and get them involved in debates. Perhaps that would give the party the boost it needs to come together and become more noticeable. The only serious flaw I had with that idea is that most of the Libertarians I know or have encountered were initially more conservative than liberal. And if that is the norm with a majority of the party, that would put the democratic candidate at a serious advantage come election time.

And last but not least, prisons. No slave labor, that's for sure. They should be given the same training and equipment as anybody else doing the same job on the outside would have.
04-11-2008 10:10 AM
ZX6R1033
Quote:
While I'm pro-immigration, I believe in melting pot concept, not multiculturalism. In other words, when you move to another country, you learn the language and customs.

I am with you 110% on that one. We seem to be the only country in existence that does things any different at all.
04-11-2008 09:59 AM
Vash Mkeeny: Best pro-choice argument I've heard so far. Incidentally, best pro-life argument I've heard was that birth rates in civilized countries are dropping below replacement rate.

Snake: I think we're misunderstood each other somewhere

Abortions arent a pleasant procedure. One could say it in itself is lesson enough (few people have more than one). Besides, society as a whole is better off with productive people, and teenage pregnancy makes not only the mother less productive than she could've been, but likely her kids as well.

I dont see your point about tests. They are about the same as US history highschool tests. While I'm pro-immigration, I believe in melting pot concept, not multiculturalism. In other words, when you move to another country, you learn the language and customs. You can celebrate whichever days you feel like, but the whole country celebrates according to its customs. So dont deman to be given some wierd date payed holiday, and smile when people wish ya marry christmas. (Likewise, if someone wishes me happy rammadan, I'll say thanks)
The border guard scenario is a problem with our judicial system, not immigration. Why is the guard in trouble in the first place? If he actually did something wrong, than it should be the same as a cop doing something wrong, same rules should apply.
My point about ron paul was that the libertarian party isnt nearly as well orginized as either the democratic or republican party (perhaps its members are the least likely to end up in gov't) and thus has a great deal less power. With good organization, and some time the ideology could be every bit as powerful as todays parties.
I agree, I think prisoners should work to earn their keep. The work should not be just cruel punishment however. If you want them to work in a mine, give them modern safety equipment to do it with, dont chain them to their pick axe. I think the correctional system should concentrate on rehabilitation, not punishment. But it should be real rehabilitation not the rediculous, lets give a child molester 6 month crap.



04-11-2008 09:22 AM
snakesht Vash,
We were all young and made many mistakes. That's where accountability comes into play. If you have a teenager and you buy them a car and they total it because they weren't driving in a responsible manner, are you going to buy them another car? I hope not. You make them work until they can afford to buy their own car. Then maybe they will have enough appreciation and will act like an adult. (I'm also a believer that if "minors" are allowed to have a drivers license, they should be tried as an adult by default for any traffic-related offenses.)
The same thing applies to girls who go get knocked up. It's no mystery how babies are made, so why should they be able to use abortion as an alternative to contraceptives?

I have no problem with immigration if it is done legally. I have a question about the test though. I have never really researched it but is there a copy available that one can study before taking the actual test? If so, how would that differ from half of the tests that many of us took in school? You can't tell me you've never memorized material for a test and never used that information since. And if we need to change the test to reflect the basic knowledge of average Americans, so be it. What I do not agree with is when 2 of our border patrol agents attempt to apprehend a Mexican drug runner and a shootout follows, wounding the drug runner. Then we grant the Mexican immunity in exchange for his testimony against our own agents who were just trying to do their job.

The point I was making about speaking with the president was that our federal government should be more concerned about federal issues, and leave the power to local governments. How many federal bills have pork that only effects a small number of people in a secluded area of a state?

As far as not agreeing with Ron Paul (or any other libertarian for that matter) is that not the case with any group that has a label? How many self-proclaimed Christians do you know who display few if any of the values and ideals of Christianity?

I failed to mention anything about the number of people who have been falsely convicted and got their verdict overturned, sometimes after years in prison. I know it happens. And your system is not perfect. But what would you expect as an alternative? I'd settle for a prison system where inmates are forced to work so that they are still productive members of society. That lessens the tax burden of the correctional system. Some prisons do that already, but many are just a place for prisoners to hang out (albeit in less than ideal conditions) until their next parole hearing, or release date. On top of having them working, there should be some educational programs available to the inmates so that those who wish to better themselves have the option to do so. Maybe there already is, and I'm not familiar enough with the prison system to know about it.
04-11-2008 08:47 AM
ZX6R1033
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkeeney View Post
What makes a baby created by rape any less viable than one created through drunken lust? Doesn't your argument about adoption also work for rape victims? Is it fair to the baby to make a decision on its life based on the circumstances of its conception? If so, who should determine which circumstances merit abortion and which don't? What about women who take the pill but don't realize that certain antibiotics make it ineffective? What if the condom breaks? Do those people qualify?

Is your position on abortion based on a desire to make people accountable for their actions or what's best for the baby? Don't you think a baby created through rape will choose to live if given the choice? I don't think he'll say "Nah, I'm a rape baby. Just throw me in the dumpster." What if the rape baby grows up to be a pilot? (Back on topic!)

I don't advocate forcing rape victims to bear babies. However, you can't have it both ways. This is the problem with the pro-life movement - they want to ban all abortions except (fill in whatever circumstances which make the baby a monster in their eyes). If a person is truly pro-life, then there are no circumstances that are acceptable. If a person admits that there are exceptions, then what gives them the power to determine the appropriate circumstances in someone else's life?


Point taken.

Quote:
I always looked at it as a punishment for the victim of a rape to have to endure pregnancy if she did not want to. But I realize that it is somewhat hypocritical to set conditions for when it is right or wrong.
That was my same view on the situation.

I still don't think abortions should be legal, though.


The "We were all young" Argument doesn't fly for me. Dumb is dumb. If you make a bad decision, you have consequences. That's life. Why should it be any different because they were "Young"?
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