I hear you and even agree to some extent BUT... being third of seven kids myself and having three of my own now with the youngest at 15, I can assure you that different kids respond differently to the same treatment. The trick is knowing which one, when, and how much. Out of my parent's seven, with the youngest at 35 now, they didn't have one miss. Every one of them is tops in their field, get along with ANYBODY, and genuinely nice, honest, fun people. I for one, got some physical persuasion now and then and damn well needed it. With my kids now, I've only resorted to physical on rare occasions. I can count the times on two hands with fingers to spare, and so far so good. Actually, they're old enough now that if they don't have it yet, they aren't going to get it. The spanking days, when it can be effective, are long gone. I had one who needed a little, one who needed none, and one who knew how to get right to the edge, but quit in time. They're all pretty independant and doing fine. One thing, regardless of how you handle it, they have to know that you care.