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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-07-2008, 07:23 AM Thread Starter
 
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Hey Duner

Since I know how much you love class warfare

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=040708A



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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-10-2008, 05:03 AM
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Not as much class wars as economic gap and corporate control.
not big on free market anymore if it's gonna consume like a virus till it's host is dead.
Even billionaire Warren Buffet sees the futures market as dangerous.

The writer kinda floats around on his points.

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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-10-2008, 05:10 AM Thread Starter
 
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All hail prophet buffet. Preventing people from entering contracts is dangerous. Its the very foundation of trust and cooperation. The market is the most diversified and secure way of orginizing people. The alternative is centralized control. When the market crashes, most people take a payhit bunker down and a few year down the road everything is fine again. When centralized control fails, tanks start rolling down streets.



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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-10-2008, 05:24 PM
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I feel so ignorant now.
I had no idea that the GLOBAL markets were following the US markets THAT close.....per consumer staples.
Wow.
Actually......it may bring reform to market access to food commodities or more.


http://www.democracynow.org/2008/4/8..._as_food_riots

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...feed=worldnews

http://www.reuters.com/article/world...Name=worldNews

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080410/...zil_un_food_dc

http://www.newstin.com/sim/us/52114048/en-010-001771312


I found some new phrases for my anti-free market outlooks.
Speculative attacks,
Global investment funds,
Unregulated flows of international capital ,

" Food price rises cannot simply be explained by crop yields or the expansion of the use of agricultural land for biofuels. Speculation in agricultural commodity markets runs in parallel with the rising costs of gold, oil and essential metals."

"So, absolutely, free trade has a great deal of responsibility to bear here, because countries have been forced into using free trade. And, of course, when the price of food goes up globally, countries have no reserves, they have no policies, they have no recourse, if theyíre being forced to be part of the free trade system. So, yes, I think it has a great deal of responsibility."

" Itís an alternative to oil if youíre in the grain business. Itís an alternative to oil if you are one of the large industrial grain processors who are looking and lobbying very hard to make money out of the transformation of grain into ethanol."

"Food commodities should be insulated from speculators and hedge funds who profit as prices rise, "




I feel some moratoriums approaching.
Which could help but also de-stabilize the markets more.

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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-10-2008, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
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............The alternative is centralized control. When the market crashes, most people take a payhit bunker down and a few year down the road everything is fine again. When centralized control fails, tanks start rolling down streets.
I agree, and the controls seldom work comment....I agree with that too.
But that dont mean that its a good thing, or that it's not a bitter pill to swallow.
Why destroy what was good if you can avoid it?
Again... the root issue driving force is energy, and oil leading that.
And futures/speculators investing.
Sure, we need to find new energy soon before peak oil production is passed and we start running out,
But the investors driving inflation and causing global chaos is not needed.
There's your increase in new millionaires in america you were talking about.
Offspring of other millionaires, attacking the poor and countries economies as a whole.....for self-profit to buy more vacation homes, and mistresses and luxury cars.
The infectious greed Greenspan was talking about.

You.... can go rock climbing.... and feel fulfilled that you accomplished something and feel good about yourself, pet your dog, ride your bike, and be content.
Wealthy, and big investors....
Obsession with money is like compulsive shopping.
Fulfillment only lasts a day or two.

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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-11-2008, 06:02 AM Thread Starter
 
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First off: Of course global market are tracking the US markets. US is the economic engine the drives the whole world. The only reason china is able to expand its economy at such a pace is because it has the US market to sell stuff to. Take that away, and they have nothing, they cannot sell all that product domestically or anywhere else.
Being "forced into free trade" is an oxymoron. What they mean to say is that the protectionist measures they sat behind are fading and people are being forced in innovate to compete in a global marketplace. BooHoo. Its a good thing, people should innovate instate of stagnating.
2. Peak oil is a theory, one that seems to be more supported by people who are in the buisness of broadcasting doom, than by people who are in the buisness of dealing with oil. It may turn out to be true, but lets not talk about it like its a fact.
3. Future trading raises capital that is invested in equipment and technologies. We need that capital to come up with energy alternatives.
4. Commodity trading builds up inventories, which stabilize prices. Without it, prices would be more volitile, not less.

Look, some unknown, but large ammount of money floating around the economy (money being just paper) turned out to be worthless due to the whole mortage mess. No one knows exactly which money is representing that right now, or how much we are talking about, all we have is estimates. Here is the problem. Its still worth as much "money" as it was before the crash, but its not worth much at all in terms of products or services. The only way this could happen, is money itself starts loosing value, which is exactly what is happening. So everyone is busy trying to replace their money with commodities that arent loosing value, thus demand for commodities is going up, raising their price and creating bubbles. One big bubble busted, and its creating lots of small bubbles, which will bust to make lots of smaller bubbles. This waves will spill out over the entire world, ripple thru the global economy, subsiding more each time. Regretfully, the developing world will get the worst of it. Not because their losses will be greater (they will actually be pretty slim, since they have a much smaller piece of the global economy) but because they have so little they could afford to loose. If my grocery bill doubles, I gripe. If the grocery prices in somalia double, people starve to death. Alternativly, you could force the poor countries to insulate themselves from the global economy. They would not feel the effects of ripples like this at all. They would also remain poor forever, and have no way to climb out of their current condition. Take your pick



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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-12-2008, 06:38 AM
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"3. Future trading raises capital that is invested in equipment and technologies. We need that capital to come up with energy alternatives."

Where the heck did you get that from?

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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-14-2008, 03:30 AM Thread Starter
 
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Unless I'm completely wrong about futures trading.. Lets go back to the original one, with the tulips.

GuyA wants to buy, plant, grow, and sell an expensive tulip. GuyB buys shares, pays money to GuyA. GuyA takes the money and uses it to buy and care for the tulip. Is that not investing capital in equipment?



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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-15-2008, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vash View Post
Unless I'm completely wrong about futures trading.. Lets go back to the original one, with the tulips.

GuyA wants to buy, plant, grow, and sell an expensive tulip. GuyB buys shares, pays money to GuyA. GuyA takes the money and uses it to buy and care for the tulip. Is that not investing capital in equipment?




Not tulips,
Tulip bulbs.

"GuyA wants to buy, plant, grow, and sell an expensive tulip...."
Venture Capitalist provide equtiy for seed companies starting up. Not future or speculation trading.


GuyA ........ grows, and sells an expensive tulip...... GuyB buys shares, pays money to GuyA. GuyA takes the money and uses it to buy and care for the tulip.

Or GuyA has no motivation and does nothing and "Vests and Rests" = investing and resting.

or plans to retire anyway and saves profits.

or uses profits in other arenas with better profit return, like overseas investments.

or reduces production to inflate prices.

or has partners who take all profits as quarterly profit sharing.

or has plenty of expanded equity and saves profits.

or has little market expansion room left and so saves the profits.

or inflation and increased operating costs make increased production and investments forcasts unprofitable.

or sniffs coccaine and blows all his profits up his nose.



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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-16-2008, 04:22 AM Thread Starter
 
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This is silly. If guyA shares are performing poorly, guyB will dump them, their value will go down, and guyA will end up broke. There is also a chance he'll get investigate by the SEC. How is that for incentive?



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