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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 04:53 AM Thread Starter
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Time to arm the students

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Gunman kills 6, self in campus shooting

By Judy Keen, USA TODAY
DEKALB, Ill. Students crawled, hid and ran in terror from a man dressed in black who appeared from behind a screen at a lecture hall Thursday at a university outside Chicago and blasted students with gunfire before shooting himself in a melee that was over in less than two minutes, school officials said.

Six people died from gunshot wounds and 15 others were injured in Northern Illinois University shooting, University Police chief Donald Grady and the DeKalb County coroner's office said.

Lauren Carr said she was in the third row of a lecture hall in Cole Hall about 3 p.m. when she saw the shooter walk through a door at the side of the stage, pointing a gun straight ahead. The 20-year-old sophomore said she "crawled halfway up the aisle."

"I said I could get up and run or I could die here," she said. A student in front of her was bleeding, "but he just kept running. I heard this girl scream, 'Run, he's reloading the gun!' "

Grady said the gunman had a shotgun and two pistols and was a former student at the school of 25,000 students 65 west of Chicago. University President John Peters told CNN on Friday the gunman had graduated in 2006 with a sociology degree and then had been a graduate student in sociology, but was not enrolled at the campus when the shooting occurred.

"He was a good student," Peters told CNN. "There was no indication there was any trouble."

The Chicago Tribune, citing two unidentified law enforcement sources, reported on its website Friday that the gunman was a graduate student at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Authorities did not release the gunman's name, but Peters said he had no record of police contact or an arrest record while attending Northern Illinois.

GUNS ON CAMPUS: Some say they should be allowed

Peters said those who the gunman killed were all students, four females and one male. Four others were in critical condition late Thursday.

The shooting recalled the deaths of 32 people at Virginia Tech University last year at the hands of a student gunman, an act that prompted schools across the country to re-examine campus security. Classes at NIU were canceled indefinitely.

The shooting came weeks after DeKalb police investigated in December writings on a dormitory wall that made references to the Virginia Tech shootings. Police found no imminent threat at the time.

The first shots were fired just after 3 p.m. during a geology class led by a graduate student. At 3:07 p.m., Peters said they put the entire campus on "lockdown," but did not elaborate on what that meant. Two minutes later sophomore Melissa Elaguizy said a teacher arrived at her classroom in DuSable Hall, near Cole Hall, to warn of a possible shooting and order the doors of the classroom locked.

Peters said the school then put out a campus-wide alert at 3:20 p.m. that included a message on the school's website and through e-mails, voice mails, public address systems and calls to media outlets.

"Get to a safe area and take precautions until given the all clear," the message read. "Avoid the King Commons and all buildings in that vicinity."

On campus Thursday night students were streaming out of a dormitory heading for home.

Robin Johnson, 18, a freshman from Chicago, was in her English class when classmates received text and phone messages about the shooting. She said her teacher locked the door, shoved a desk against the door and put a trash can on top of the desk.

"We didn't know how many of them there were. We didn't know if we were safe," she said.

Eric Johnson, 23, a senior from Addison, Ill., said he was standing 20 feet form the entrance to Cole Hall when "the doors flung open and a ton of people ran out. They were yelling, 'he's got a gun!' " Johnson heard two shots as he ran back to his dorm room.

The shooting was the fourth at a U.S. school within a week.

On Feb. 8, a woman shot two fellow students to death before committing suicide at Louisiana Technical College in Baton Rouge. In Memphis, a 17-year-old is accused of shooting and critically wounding a fellow student Monday during a high school gym class. The 15-year-old victim of a shooting at an Oxnard, Calif., junior high school has been declared brain dead.
I honestly think the only way to put an end to all these shootings is to allow students who are of age and have completed the necessary training to carry concealed weapons. I guarantee these gunmen will think twice about walking into a classroom when they know there's a good chance someone might shoot back.

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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 06:25 AM
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Well, that's one solution. It would seem to me that the result will only be shootouts publicly, but its impossible to know until its been done I suppose.

I have a family friend who was among the injured in the shooting. Not fatal or serious but scary nonetheless.

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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 06:48 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kanwisch View Post
Well, that's one solution. It would seem to me that the result will only be shootouts publicly, but its impossible to know until its been done I suppose.

I have a family friend who was among the injured in the shooting. Not fatal or serious but scary nonetheless.
Sorry to hear that your friend was involved. Glad they weren't among those who were seriously injured or worse.

I know it seems like the more guns you have in an area, the more likely they will be used, but I don't think that would be the case. Granted, it would only take one instance for the "I told you so's" to start flying. Aside from putting metal detectors in every building, and a security guard in each room there's not many ways to actually prevent these shootings. And that would be so expensive that nobody could afford the tuition. I'm a firm believer that if you take the law-abiding citizens, and allow them to carry a firearm for self defense if they so choose provided they receive the proper training, these random shootings would be much less likely to occur.

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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 07:56 AM
 
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I don’t know how many public shootouts you will have. Seems to me that most of those gunman have some psychological issues. They aren’t looking to kill a certain person, but rather do it out of the need to feel powerful, or seek attention, or something along those lines. The feel of power will certainly be reduced if there are other guns present, as the gunman will no longer have the biggest stick, and he will know it long before hand. The desire for publicity will not be lessened however.
I don’t think the incidence of gunmen will increase. People with a concealed carry license have too much at stake to discharge their firearm needlessly, and in all likelihood any potential gunmen will have far fewer victims, since the sprees are likely to be much shorter.
The downside is that I believe acts of intimidation using a firearm, whether obvious or overt, will likely increase. Still to me it seems like an idea worth trying, at least at a handful of schools if not the whole country.



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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 08:10 AM Thread Starter
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Yes, most states that allow concealed carry have pretty strict laws that carry harsh punishment for someone who produces a weapon when the situation does not warrant it. I think that includes verbal threats as well i.e. "I have a gun, so don't mess with me" etc.

I haven't gotten my CCW yet, so I haven't researched the law thoroughly enough to see what the limitations are, but I do know that if you draw your firearm, it had better be a life-and-death situation, or else you'll be spending some time in a cell.

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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 10:17 AM
 
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I am sorry for all of those involved in the latest school shooting & to others in the past. Still if you think CCW is the answer & should be allowed to any student of proper age. I actually TEACH beginners to more experienced h/gun shooters how to handle & shoot their guns. To fire a decent tight group is only achived by a few after some years of training---being basically training & shooting almost weekly, and yes some are natural born shooters so easy to teach, but they have their ON & OFF days but do not know it till they are shootig.

In honesty if I was there & had the right to use one of my best h/guns, a 45ACP of Browning action made to my specs some 3 yrs ago at the cost of $4,000.00 then & not farther then seven yds to feel I can place all two or three shots on the body as so planned to down him/her. Not to mention what would happen if one rnd did not hit the body & went into others or possibly a round went through the soft part of the body to hit a bystander.

Also with all over & no one injured from my shooting I would be in deep trouble with the police & believe me the strain would be beyond belief.

So do some of you feel this would be your answer? For honestly I do not know.

Last edited by Smitty; 02-15-2008 at 10:21 AM.
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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by snakesht View Post
I'm a firm believer that if you take the law-abiding citizens, and allow them to carry a firearm for self defense if they so choose provided they receive the proper training, these random shootings would be much less likely to occur.
Vash had a similar point. What makes me less certain are the many, many experiences I've had with road-ragers (comes from driving lots of miles). People frequently and easily lose their tempers and their actions are outright murderous, thus my uncertainty about that being a viable solution.

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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 10:32 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
I am sorry for all of those involved in the latest school shooting & to others in the past. Still if you think CCW is the answer & should be allowed to any student of proper age. I actually TEACH beginners to more experienced h/gun shooters how to handle & shoot their guns. To fire a decent tight group is only achived by a few after some years of training---being basically training & shooting almost weekly, and yes some are natural born shooters so easy to teach, but they have their ON & OFF days but do not know it till they are shootig.

In honesty if I was there & had the right to use one of my best h/guns, a 45ACP of Browning action made to my specs some 3 yrs ago at the cost of $4,000.00 then & not farther then seven yds to feel I can place all two or three shots on the body as so planned to down him/her. Not to mention what would happen if one rnd did not hit the body & went into others or possibly a round went through the soft part of the body to hit a bystander.

Also with all over & no one injured from my shooting I would be in deep trouble with the police & believe me the strain would be beyond belief.

So do some of you feel this would be your answer? For honestly I do not know.
Even when I get my CCW it is my sincere hope that I never have to draw my weapon, much less discharge it. I know that firing a handgun accurately is not as easy as TV and movies make it look, and when under pressure, it is surely even harder to maintain a steady hand and control your breathing, etc. I have spent a lot of time plinking as well as firing at a local indoor range, and I have my good days and bad days. But my opinion is that many of these shooters would be less likely to walk into an auditorium, classroom, town hall, etc knowing that others in there are likely to have their own weapons. As it is now, if they are in a gun-free zone, they know that they are the only ones who will be armed. It would certainly ruin their plans if they were taken down before they had a chance to kill half a dozen or more people. As it stands, they know that is a remote possibility, as the only others who would be armed would be police officers or other criminals. And as I said in an above post, armed guards or officers would be an enormous cost for a college if they were to be in every building.

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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 10:34 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kanwisch View Post
Vash had a similar point. What makes me less certain are the many, many experiences I've had with road-ragers (comes from driving lots of miles). People frequently and easily lose their tempers and their actions are outright murderous, thus my uncertainty about that being a viable solution.
I see your point, and cars are considered weapons when used as such. But it's also a little too easy for someone to get a driver's license. Much more so than a CCW at least.

"The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get worse every time Congress meets."
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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 01:09 PM
 
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I could add to kanwisch's point. I've known at least one cop who used his firearm in an inapproproate and unnecessary manner. And we've all seen a few videos of a taser being used when it perhaps shouldnt be. Now surely police receive more training for their firearms than the average CCW holder.



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