V-Rod finished last - Page 2 - Sportbike Forum: Sportbike Motorcycle Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 08:17 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
fuster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auburn, WA 98401
Posts: 1,490
Quote:
Originally posted by sfarson
Well, it is clear you're coming from emotion and not fact. Too bad you broadstroke all H-D riders the same. One could say the same about sportbike riders... buying the lifestyle. Too bad you think I've needed tools and 24 hour towing. Wrong again. Your loss. Zero problems in four years. Can't say that about my BMW. Can say that about my Honda which I'm also smitten with.

Reread the post. I didn't say the V-Rod outsells all other types of bikes in Europe.
Why don't you enlighten me? Explain to us dumb folks how you smart asses who know how to buy a motorcycle live with a 70 year old engine design that the manufacturer refuses to recall due to bad cam bearings and forces the owner to ride until the engine blows up (maybe in the middle of nowhere) and the dealers do not provide enough support for these types of problems? Counterbalancers. What a concept. Japanese twins had them 20 years before Harley did. Huh. Go figure. Denial stands for "Don't Even Know I Am Lying". So you would of course not feel you have the "lifestyle accessory" syndrome.

It took you several posts to fess up to owning a Harley. Why do you suppose that is? Shame? I am not sure, but if not that then it is at least awfully dishonest not to put it out there up front.

Any other revelations we need to know about? Do you work for Harley? A dealer? Be honest now.

Fuster

"...If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two imposters the same....you'll be a Man, my Son!"

- Rudyard Kipling
fuster is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 08:30 PM
Registered User
 
sfarson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Colorado
Posts: 29
Oh goodie, always enjoy having an exhange with assumptions, stereotyping, subjectivity, and hearsay. Fun!

Quote:
Originally posted by sidewaysducati
This not all that huge a revelation. The vast majority of Harley owners love their bikes.(Oddly enough)
The "oddly enough" reveals your distaste for those not like you. Clouds your reasoning.

Quote:
50 million smokers can't be wrong.
Oh, this is an intelligent response and comeback. A revealing attitude and of course you have a nice objective source for this.

Quote:
With what information would I update my database? Where is the proof provided by an unbiased, objective source, that this motor is any more reliable than any of the other motors H.D. has produced?
One source is from a post read in a forum where Buell was actually rated at the top recently. But you wouldn't buy that so here's one... a recent U.K. report of 10,000 riders asked if their motorcycle was reliable or not...

90-100%: BMW
80-90%: Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, H-D, Triumph, MZ, Kawasaki
70-80%: Aprilia, KTM, Cagiva
60-70%: Ducati, Moto Guzzi, CCM

BTW, You ride Duc? You have my reliability sympathies versus H-D. Then again, maybe not. My 998 and ST4s has been perfectly reliable.

Quote:
Again, is there an objective source from which you retrieved this data?
The volume by class and region was cited in last week's issue (#49) of Cycle News, in an interview with the new Ducati North America manager where he cites the challenges (negative industry and class of bike trends) facing Ducati with their product in different regions. This is widely known, and is a key source for BMW's European woes this year. Surely you you know this.

Also, from the November issue of Dealer News, through October and including the November - December forecast, unit volume by class (if it were in dollars it would even more dominating):

Cruiser 333,668
Sport 139,497
Touring 114,412
Standard 17,816
Dual Purpose 23,961
Scooter 49,032

Quote:
So far, you're 1 for 4 on sources.
I've provided the sources. What sources do you have the preceding isn't true?

Quote:
And before you dismiss me as a sportbike-only-squid-kracker, let me assure you, I have arrived at my convictions about Harleys as a result of witnessing first hand a good deal of Harley owners (3 of which I know personally) get put through hell trying to keep thier overpriced bikes on the road.
How come no response to the following? Wish to ignore it? From MCN no less...

Unlike Harleys of the past, these Softails go, turn and stop well -- not just "for Harleys," but just plain well.

At a time when Japanese sportbikes are upping the performance ante beyond our wildest dreams, it's a shame that its cruisers have been dumbed down almost beyond recognition. And it's nice to see a bike like the Deuce. It offers all the styling and resale value Milwaukee is famous for while putting its Japanese competition to shame in an arena they otherwise dominate.

So pick up the ball Japan. If you thought that cruiser riders only cared about looks, Harley-Davidson is a step ahead of you... again


Quote:
A few posts you claim to have seen, on an H.D. forum, no less, does not a good argument make.
The sources are above. Is your only source from some personal observations? This is what you're accusing me of. Egads, give me some facts, not... 50 million smokers and this is what I've seen stuff. Anyone can come up with retorts and counters to that. Come on... give me facts that H-D riders don't like their bikes, facts that the majority smoke, facts that H-D's are less reliable (I'll make it simple... just prove to me H-D is less reliable than Ducati), facts that cruisers don't dominate the motorcycle scene, facts that European sportbike volume is growing.
sfarson is offline  
post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 09:26 PM
Registered User
 
sidewaysducati's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: At the love-in punching hippies
Posts: 1,173
I do not have a "distaste" for those not like me. What I meant by that statement is that Harleys are a hard bike to like.

"50 million smokers can't be wrong" Is an advertising slogan, for cigarettes, that came out of the 1950's. I was using it, sarcastically, to make the point that: Just because a large number of people do something, it does not make it wise. (In this case, of course, I meant buying Harleys.)

Quote:
Originally posted by sfarson
One source is from a post read in a forum where Buell was actually rated at the top recently. But you wouldn't buy that so here's one... a recent U.K. report of 10,000 riders asked if their motorcycle was reliable or not...

90-100%: BMW
80-90%: Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, H-D, Triumph, MZ, Kawasaki
70-80%: Aprilia, KTM, Cagiva
60-70%: Ducati, Moto Guzzi, CCM

BTW, You ride Duc? You have my reliability sympathies versus H-D. Then again, maybe not. My 998 and ST4s has been perfectly reliable.
"One source is from a post read .."
This is not a source.
"..a recent U.K. report of 10,000 riders.."
Also, not a source.

And, no, I do not ride a Ducati. If you would look under my avatar, you would see that. I rode a Ducati SS 900, beginning in 2000, Until I purchased my current Yamaha at the end of the model year '03. I experienced no undue mechanical problems on the Ducati. I found it to be a high watermark of engineering. Thanks for your concern.

Quote:
Originally posted by sfarson
The volume by class and region was cited in last week's issue (#49) of Cycle News, in an interview with the new Ducati North America manager where he cites the challenges (negative industry and class of bike trends) facing Ducati with their product in different regions. This is widely known, and is a key source for BMW's European woes this year. Surely you you know this.
I don't know that any problems Ducati is experiencing affect BMW. Ducati has had a very checkered past in regard to internal manegerial problems, and financial woes. I'm sure YOU knew THAT.

Quote:
Originally posted by sfarson
Also, from the November issue of Dealer News, through October and including the November - December forecast, unit volume by class...
THIS is a source.

The reason I am not responding to the MCN report you gave is because it is laden with opinion. In fact, I think it's ALL opinion. Arguing with opinion is beyond pointless. It is only effective to work based off of FACT.

Quote:
Originally posted by sfarson
The sources are above. Is your only source from some personal observations? This is what you're accusing me of. Egads, give me some facts, not... 50 million smokers and this is what I've seen stuff. Anyone can come up with retorts and counters to that. Come on... give me facts that H-D riders don't like their bikes, facts that the majority smoke, facts that H-D's are less reliable (I'll make it simple... just prove to me H-D is less reliable than Ducati), facts that cruisers don't dominate the motorcycle scene, facts that European sportbike volume is growing.
What do you want me to do? Post on the internet the names of the people I know who work on their Harleys all the time? I do not think they'd be pleased by that, and I'm not about to do it.

There IS no support for the statement that H.D. riders do not like their bikes. I did not make this statement. My statement was contrary to that, in fact.

There is no way in hell for me to PROVE that H.D. is less reliable than Ducati. I would have to be omnipotent to gather that data.
All I can do is provide my personal experience, and observation. I rode a 5 year old Ducati for 3 years, and had no trouble. I have BEEN IN THE GARAGES of three Harley owners, whose bikes were each no more than 3 years old, who spent twice as much time servicing the bike as they did riding it. Through my social interactions with friends of the aforementioned three Harley riders, I have learned that Harleys, generally speaking, are unreliable. This last sentence I have written is, technically hearsay, however it does factor in to my perception of H.D., and I beleive it to be fact. Those I have spoken with have no reason to degrade their own motorcycles.

Cruisers could very well be "dominating" the "motorcycle scene". My statement was not that they didn't. I just wanted a source for your statement of that alleged fact.

Again, the volume of sportbikes in Europe could be decreasing. All I wanted, again, was a source for your statement.
sidewaysducati is offline  
 
post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 09:27 PM
Registered User
 
sfarson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Colorado
Posts: 29
Quote:
Originally posted by fuster
Why don't you enlighten me? Explain to us dumb folks how you smart asses who know how to buy a motorcycle live with a 70 year old engine design that the manufacturer refuses to recall due to bad cam bearings and forces the owner to ride until the engine blows up (maybe in the middle of nowhere) and the dealers do not provide enough support for these types of problems? Counterbalancers. What a concept. Japanese twins had them 20 years before Harley did. Huh. Go figure. Denial stands for "Don't Even Know I Am Lying". So you would of course not feel you have the "lifestyle accessory" syndrome.

It took you several posts to fess up to owning a Harley. Why do you suppose that is? Shame? I am not sure, but if not that then it is at least awfully dishonest not to put it out there up front.

Any other revelations we need to know about? Do you work for Harley? A dealer? Be honest now.
Be happy to enlighten you. First, open your eyes and mind and look around. Tell me how modern the v-twin engine is in the Honda Shadow I used to ride, or the v-twin engine in any metric cruiser. Even Yamaha uses push rods with their Warrior. Oh that's modern all right. My hands would go to sleep on my 98 Spirit from the vibes. You think these metric CB's worked? And talk about a weak engine. You're so H-D resentful you don't even see other manufacturers doing the same. The v-twin engine is there because it delivers the cruising experience unlike any other engine configuration. Even Honda noted this when the VTX replaced the Valkyrie (Sure loved my Valk) as their big cruiser. If you want any kind of cruiser volume as a manufacturer you use the old v-twin design. This is what Victory did when they could have created a cruiser with any engine platform. Oh, and FWIW, there's a large number of H-D riders wishing for the EVO days and the joyous vibes coming from the non-balanced engine. Many did not want the TC88B, but you wouldn't know this believing all cruising riders think like you... 150mph, clinical, smooth and appliance like. Zzzzzzz. Your lack of awareness or understanding of the cruising scene is easily observable.

H-D should have recalled the cam bearing problem. They have a black eye over this. It took Honda a long time to recognize and fess up that Gold Wing frames would crack. They have a black eye over this as well. But of course, they're Honda and you're color blind here.

Egads, settle down. Why was it necessary I mention riding a H-D in the first post when I just post a message noting there is countering review of the V-Rod? That not every publication sees the V-Rod the same way? You're so anti H-D emotional you leave rants like "Face it, it is an overpriced P.O.S. Harley is selling the V-Rod to recover their millions they lost.... Oh, this is not a biased remark.

I mention riding H-D in the same post as riding Honda, BMW, and Ducati, to note that I am bike make agnostic and can see the value in them all (though Ducati is my fave ). But you don't see the value in this diversity. Your choice. We can leave it at that.
sfarson is offline  
post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 10:00 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
fuster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Auburn, WA 98401
Posts: 1,490
No I am not anti Harley. I like the Road Glide and the Softtail Deuce, especially the latter because of its concept (factory custom). But they are way overpriced for the majority of persons owning them. The reason why so many new or newer models are for sale is due in large part to owners either not being able to shoulder the payments and justify the thing sitting in their garage (assuming they have a garage) most of the time, or they just plain want to buy a house and it is too hard with that much debt on their credit report. Yes, many of the new owners are suits. But the average American who wants one is not that wealthy, certainly not in your putative income bracket. That is what I dislike about harleys. An American machine that lies about being an American bike, because they are so expensive that the average rider cannot afford them without going into debt up to their ears.

I read the MCN test on the V-Rod. Rider says: it has poor handling, the ergonomics are the worst of all the bikes in its class, and it is expensive for what you get, especially if you compare it to its closest peer, the V Max. I'd like to see a dealer selling a Harley for MSRP. Not any of them here. If I bought a Deuce I would pay $3-4K over MSRP. No thanks.

I have plenty of friends who will likely never buy anything but a Harley, and I love them all as my friends. If they want a Harley, that has nothing to do with our friendship or what they are to me as my friend. They love motorcycling just like I do. I don't care for the above things I mentioned and feel sorry that they dump so much into one bike just to try to get reasonable power out of it (gulp - they want power too, don't cha know?). But I digress. I will always hate harley for their pricing structure. The dealers make things a lot worse, plus many dealers do not provide the support to owners, especially visitors from out of town with bike problems, that they should bend over backwards for what is charged for their bikes. Their bikes are of an old design. No one is copying them. Harley did not invent twins. They charge (thousands) extra just to put an overdrive transmission on one of their bikes, and don't offer it standard, this is but one example of how backwards they think. They hate competition. They tried to patent the "potato" sound of the exhaust to eliminate competition. Didnt' work.

Anyone who spent that much money for one bike is going to justify owning it. Otherwise they would be admitting they are stupid. I understand that. If you feel you are not stupid, that is fine. I am not saying you are, but unless you are going to demonstrate how much disposable income you have after paying your living expenses, etc., and you can convince me you are rich, I have to wonder if maybe you aren't either a compulsive spender or you carry a lot of debt just to own bikes. Is that stupid? To a lot of people it would be. If you are not like the "crowd" of Harley buyers, fixated on what others think about your outsides, and you seem to claim you are not, it won't matter.

Fuster

"...If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two imposters the same....you'll be a Man, my Son!"

- Rudyard Kipling
fuster is offline  
post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 10:10 PM
Registered User
 
sfarson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Colorado
Posts: 29
Quote:
The reason I am not responding to the MCN report you gave is because it is laden with opinion. In fact, I think it's ALL opinion. Arguing with opinion is beyond pointless. It is only effective to work based off of FACT.
Well if this is the case, why don't you offer facts? I answered and responded with facts ... V-Rod volume, cruiser volume, market trends, reliability surveys, etc. I'd go with the 10,000 respondents as more reflective and accurate than "I know three guys...". I could counter that with the three big twin H-D's I've owned over the years as offering zero, nada, zilch problems.

So while I provide sources, I get zero in response. Instead I'm responding to comments like "and the service frequency / cost also being very high, I can not understand the appeal. Just to look cool with a bunch of other dolts who made the same mistake, I guess." Yeah, you ask for sources while tossing out opinionated and unsourced garbage like this.

I'll be like you but keep it simpler. Instead of asking for a range of sources (which you didn't provide when I asked but had no problem asking me for), I'll just ask for one... show me the service costs of H-D at the main 5K interval and how they compare to the 6K BMW, Ducati, and Honda 4K/8K (you can overlook the pricey 16K VFR valve job). Then I'll respond with the receipts from the same. It will blow your unsourced claim away. You don't even want to go into the insurance comparisons. As you said, it is only effective to work based off FACT. Let's have it, and I won't even get into your revealing "bunch of other dolts who made the same mistake" comment. Oh, that's factual.
sfarson is offline  
post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 10:18 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Schecnetady NY 12345
Posts: 17
I bet u guys dont get laid much
mykneegrows is offline  
post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 10:29 PM
Registered User
 
sidewaysducati's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: At the love-in punching hippies
Posts: 1,173
There is no winning this argument for either one of us. You'll look at it as you being right, I'll look at it as me being right. So, for conclusion's sake, let's say that you are a genius, and I am a fool.

I'm not about to go get a bunch of receipts from people, do a shit load of internet research, and quit my job so I can dedicate my life to convincing someone of something they'll never believe.

After all, I am a professional.

Permanently bowing out of the SBK -vs- H.D. argument,
sideways
sidewaysducati is offline  
post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 10:36 PM
Registered User
 
sfarson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Colorado
Posts: 29
Quote:
No I am not anti Harley. I like the Road Glide and the Softtail Deuce, especially the latter because of its concept (factory custom). But they are way overpriced for the majority of persons owning them.
Well, you're softening my heart. I ride a '00 Deuce . The financials are not that bad when looking into them more closely.

Here's my reality... if I were to sell the Deuce I'll probably eat $3000 to $4000 in depreciation. Some could probably hang in there longer and maybe lose only $2000. The days of a hot H-D resale market are over. I've owned a CBR1100XX for about the same period of time. Paid $10000. Could sell now for about $5000. I bought an '01 BMW R1150GS for $14,500. Could sell now for $8500. The Duc has depreciated as well.

Net, it has basically cost me $4000 to ride the Deuce, $5000 to ride the Honda, and $6000 to ride the BMW (if I sell...and most eventually do). If factoring insurance I would save even more each year with the H-D ($128 annually). Yes, buying H-D costs more bucks, but one resells it at more bucks. Many H-D owners have decided they'd rather have a Harley in the garage than a Taurus. And some point to cash flow or alternative investment opportunities lost when buying H-D, or Ducati, or BMW, and other pricey makes, but few do, think, or act this way.

Hey, truly, I'm sure we could have a great sportbike exchange and have much in common with this great sport. Peace and good riding.
sfarson is offline  
post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 12-19-2004, 10:54 PM
Registered User
 
sfarson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Central Colorado
Posts: 29
Quote:
Originally posted by sidewaysducati
There is no winning this argument for either one of us. You'll look at it as you being right, I'll look at it as me being right. So, for conclusion's sake, let's say that you are a genius, and I am a fool.

I'm not about to go get a bunch of receipts from people, do a shit load of internet research, and quit my job so I can dedicate my life to convincing someone of something they'll never believe.

After all, I am a professional.

Permanently bowing out of the SBK -vs- H.D. argument,
sideways
Agreed, you will find it hard to come up with facts supporting your claims that H-D's are crap, are more expensive to service, dolts buy them, and they all made the same mistake.

I'm professional too. Fortunately I'm on vacation and tomorrow it is kids day out.
sfarson is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Sportbike Forum: Sportbike Motorcycle Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome